Not A Great Start To The Day

[AdInfinitum]

All reactions significantly different from FW. Like what the only other reaction this does from what I understand is it may drop the Akl some as it will also bond to any Phosphate that has bonded to Carbonate so it basicly precipitates some of it. I'm sure it also does this in FW. H2o is H2o and many of the salts found in SW can and do accrue in FW around the world, so then the major difference would be Sodium. As for what happened in this situation I believe the product worked very well and Phos dropped very quickly and stressed the Corals and Inverts which led to the Algae crashing and releasing whatever it may have absorb since being introduced which just started the snowball effect that just kept adding its own little bit and the BioFilter and Skimmer could not keep up and the First fish was lost then it was game over. The second anything dies it starts the decompose and Ammonia will rise, this is one reason some like to run ORP meters as you can not see all your fish/inverts sometimes and ORP reacts very quickly/ almost instantly to changes. .2 Ammonia can stress the fish to the point of death and if it stressing the Fish then you know your Corals are pretty much doomed, I believe the Seneye will sound its alarm at .2 Ammonia.
Bottom line is it is time to start over and do as Salty said and stop chasing numbers and overreacting to. Sometimes it is just best to leave it alone and let it run its course.

In this particular case it's true that the independent Lanthanum/Phosphate reaction is not significantly impacted by the ph difference between SW and FW (which is the main factor that drives many of the differences) and BTW unless the Lanthanum was significantly overdosed I don't think it can be blamed for all of the issues here.

In this case the poignant difference between SW and FW that could be significant are the physiological differences the two groups must employ to maintain homeostasis which leaves SW creatures at greater risk of harm from the inert but extremely fine and "sticky" precipitate which would tend to persist in the water column longer in SW aided by the high rates of flow that we employ precisely to prevent things from settling.

The crashing of a tank is inevitably a snowball effect and the more you do to try to stop it often accelerates the process. I am a big believer in doing less generally...and as I have said in the past, a well balanced system is resilient and can absorb deaths and losses seamlessly.... @Salty Cracker said it much more eloquently than I when he posted a while back that he "could throw a dead hooker in his tank and never see a change in the levels".

 

[Salty Cracker]

...all my dead hookers are accounted for. Freezer's getting pretty full though.

 

[BIGSHOW]

I have dosed lanthium in tank and in sump with no issues, not sure if something else is in that product but the lanthium is not the culprit at all here

I should clarify it wasn't the lanthium that killed the fish directly but maybe triggered some ill effects with the quick reduction in PO4, but I have my doubts there as well

 

[yveterinarian]

So sorry for your loss! I have used phosphate RX with no issues, dosing it into the sump. However, I didn't dose daily. I dosed once and waited a few days before dosing again. Maybe that had an impact, bringing the phosphates down too quickly? This hobby can be so rewarding at times and at others sucks!

 

[AdInfinitum]

I have dosed lanthium in tank and in sump with no issues, not sure if something else is in that product but the lanthium is not the culprit at all here

I should clarify it wasn't the lanthium that killed the fish directly but maybe triggered some ill effects with the quick reduction in PO4, but I have my doubts there as well

I also use Lanthanum Chloride but I am careful with it...I agree that it is unlikely to cause immediate issues by itself unless massively overdosed...however back in the day when I was doing research on persistent elements in industrial effluents, even though rare earth elements were much less common at that time, there were papers showing Lanthanum accumulation in the gill and liver tissues of bony fishes and more notable impact on crustacean especially microfauna populations in areas where La was used industrially or in water treatment.

 

[EricTMah]

Feel for your loss.

That said, STOP doing quick fixes. I don't know how many times I say this, and how many times I get shit of for saying it, but just leave the tank to itself.


I started an sps tank from scratch 6 months ago. No losses, and everything is fine. Because I don't mess with it. EVERY crash I have EVER had was from "fixing" something. Took me 15 years to figure it out. Just let things work themselves out.

If you have phosphate, get GFO. PERIOD. That's it, nothing else. EVER.

If fish are sick, leave em. They will either make it or not, and if not, dosing a bunch of crap into the tank won't save them, and may take everything else out.

This is a patience game. If you quick fix, you have losses. Just let nature do it's thing, don't add too much livestock, and STOP putting chemicals into the tank. There's a few core guys here that have had really really good success, and NONE of us would say "dose a crapload of stuff into your sump, that'll fix it".

1) We are here for you if you just trust us. HA = Phosphate. Nuking it won't fix your underlying issues.
2) Stability is the key, don't ever do anything drastic.
3) Chemicals are for a pool.


a 120 with sump should be plenty big enough to avoid almost any problem. We should maybe set up a mentor program here at fragtank that's open only to people with a long track record of success and NOTHING TO GAIN BY SELLING PRODUCTS.

I hope you don't give up. I love seeing a successful reef take off.

Best advice!

Sorry for your loss.


S8

 

[BIGSHOW]

I also use Lanthanum Chloride but I am careful with it...I agree that it is unlikely to cause immediate issues by itself unless massively overdosed...however back in the day when I was doing research on persistent elements in industrial effluents, even though rare earth elements were much less common at that time, there were papers showing Lanthanum accumulation in the gill and liver tissues of bony fishes and more notable impact on crustacean especially microfauna populations in areas where La was used industrially or in water treatment.

In the scientific community there are papers on that, but at what concentrations and at what frequency? Again, I am not going to debate that it can be harmful for our tank inhabitants but we need to take into reality the actual amounts WE dose and the FREQUENCY the dosing happens. You are talking on a industrial level, we are likely not anywhere near those levels for the amount of dosing done. If you look hard enough you can find a "scientific" paper on just about anything and probably several contradicting each other. Without a controlled study in reference to our tanks and our applications I wouldn't take them to seriously nor would I really mention them. Sorry, but working in a science background like yourself I have just seen way to many "Scientific" papers that are complete bullshit and taken out of context. I know of several people that dose LC on a consistent basis some that have dumped 4x the amount I have recommended with zero short term consequences (I won't say that isn't any longterm ones as we are not there yet to make that conclusion). These to me are real world "Tests" that related to the our ACTUAL discussion.

 

[AdInfinitum]

In the scientific community there are papers on that, but at what concentrations and at what frequency? Again, I am not going to debate that it can be harmful for our tank inhabitants but we need to take into reality the actual amounts WE dose and the FREQUENCY the dosing happens. You are talking on a industrial level, we are likely not anywhere near those levels for the amount of dosing done. If you look hard enough you can find a "scientific" paper on just about anything and probably several contradicting each other. Without a controlled study in reference to our tanks and our applications I wouldn't take them to seriously nor would I really mention them. Sorry, but working in a science background like yourself I have just seen way to many "Scientific" papers that are complete bullshit and taken out of context. I know of several people that dose LC on a consistent basis some that have dumped 4x the amount I have recommended with zero short term consequences (I won't say that isn't any longterm ones as we are not there yet to make that conclusion). These to me are real world "Tests" that related to the our ACTUAL discussion.

Sorry Dave didn't mean to offend and I am likely often guilty of clouding issues with needless complexity...

For the record I use Lanthanum Chloride, high concentration commercial product....consider it absolutely safe...use precautions due to the unknowns about long term exposure and as a safety net in the event that I make an egregious error in dilution...systems should be built around the day you make an error not the many days things go as planned IMO.
The potential for error is the main concern I have for people dosing directly as I have commonly seen people in this hobby make calculation errors by factors of 10 or 100.

 

[BIGSHOW]

No offense taken buddy, this is a good discussion. I don't think we quite know as hobbyists the long term effects of LC. Its just I think we need to focus on what the potential issues are with what we as hobbyists are using it for, not so much on the industrial side. fine particulate is bad for most fish, its just in what concentrations is it really that harmful? I don't want to get to far off topic, but its good for the people reading this thread to understand there CAN be potential risks associated with using LC, but in moderation it doesn't seem to be an issue. Again, I can only go off of evidence from customers and personal experience but to me these are real world results that we can relate too. LC has been used in the hobby for quite some time, its just masked with stupid product names like Phos down or Phos blah, blah, blah.

You have said it correctly that there is the potential for error and I respect the fact that its better to be safe then sorry, I don't really disagree at all with most of what you are saying, just that maybe referencing industrial side effects are not so relevant to the way it should be used in the hobby for our applications.

Caution to anything and everything we use is always best, and there is no quick fixes in this hobby. It is also best to mitigate the potential known risks like using fine filter socks and dumping in sumps to catch the precipitate. They way I look at most things is what is the downside to it? To be overly cautious by mitigating POTENTIAL side effects is just great due diligence by us hobbyists. Our tanks are not toys they are full of living creatures we must respect

 

[Salty Cracker]

I'll have to add that I didn't mean my post as an attack on "those that sell products" (most know the ones I have an actual problem with, or that I consider borderline crooks).

What I'm saying is that with the 20+ years of salt, and the 20+ years of freshwater before that, I have by far, had the BEST luck by just leaving things alone. Regular water changes with RO/DI water and a good salt, GFO to keep down the phosphates, carbon for water clarity, and 3 part (if needed) for the corals, and that's it. Like, that's IT.

Regular water changes by far has to be one of the biggest factors to success. RO/DI water means you are putting nothing in your tank you can't account for.

I'm even a big fan of the DSB, I used to just vacuum the front area, you should have SMELLED the stuff I pulled out of the inaccessible areas when I moved tanks. Anaerobic and aerobic bacteria, all good.

There's just so many "OMG EVERYHTIGN IS DYINGS ARGHH! WHAT CAN I POUR IN TO MAKE IT FIX NOW PLEASE!?!!?!" Posts that strike home because I've been there (we all have). Patience is so hard, but it's what you need to succeed. Slow and steady, do your water changes...

 

[Salty Cracker]

Sorry Dave didn't mean to offend and I am likely often guilty of clouding issues with needless complexity...

For the record I use Lanthanum Chloride, high concentration commercial product....consider it absolutely safe...use precautions due to the unknowns about long term exposure and as a safety net in the event that I make an egregious error in dilution...systems should be built around the day you make an error not the many days things go as planned IMO.
The potential for error is the main concern I have for people dosing directly as I have commonly seen people in this hobby make calculation errors by factors of 10 or 100.

so just out of curiosity, why use it if there are questions about mishaps and "long term use". Not attacking it, you know me, just can't imagine why I would put something in the tank that may harm it down the road.. ?

 

[BIGSHOW]

Let me be clear I don't really "Sell" the product per say. I simply point people in the direction where they can buy it themselves. Pool stores sell it for a fraction of cost as to what these companies are marketing it for, they are simply rebranding a common product with a fancy name and charging 1000X the price it actually costs. LC I say is sort of a last resort and steps should be taken to eliminate the source of the P04 rather then just reacting to the issues with a sort of band aid solution. LC I find great for leaching phosphate out of new or old rock and that is mainly what I recommend it for. If you are going to dose on a regular basis, doing so in a diluted fashion like AdInfintium suggests is the best approach and using a filter sock is also a good practice.

 

[BIGSHOW]

so just out of curiosity, why use it if there are questions about mishaps and "long term use". Not attacking it, you know me, just can't imagine why I would put something in the tank that may harm it down the road.. ?

I weigh the options before I do anything. If PO4 is at the point that it is negatively impacting my expensive corals my decision is based on the immediate issues vs. the "potential" long term ones. I don't really believe there is any long term effects if used in moderation, so that is my reasoning for using it. Basically in a pinch I use it, but it is a last resort.

Using GFO I have had some similar issues with it stripping the P04 to fast and I find dosing LC, diluted and in small amounts is easy for me to control the safe decline in PO4 vs running GFO in a reactor. I have done the calculations based on concetration/tank volume/ and PO4 levels. GFO is sort of like just open and close the valve and hope it works. Maybe a simplistic approach but I have had more issues with GFO then I have with proper LC dosing. What I do with most products is test, dose half (at most) the recommended amounts test again and modify based on results. Don't do anything willy nilly and don't take manufacturer claims to heart. We have the ability to test and control most things with our tanks, just err on the side of caution and take it slow, slow, slow.

Also, I should add that just because it worked before doesn't mean it will work again with the same results. Always do things slow and assume the worst and use your due diligence to mitigate the unforeseen.

TEST, TEST and TEST!

 

[AdInfinitum]

so just out of curiosity, why use it if there are questions about mishaps and "long term use". Not attacking it, you know me, just can't imagine why I would put something in the tank that may harm it down the road.. ?

Basically the same answer as Dave... and if someone has a tank that has been running high phosphates so they grab a big reactor a fill it up with GFO the results will be the same. Either product will strip high phosphates out fast enough to potentially cause major issues...GFO is no safer if used incorrectly in a high nutrient system. When it was new to reefing there were lots of accounts of GFO causing crashes (justified or not).

 

[Tiredguy]

Welcome Back to the reef world.... We should all have tattoos of FML.... Let me know when your back up and going I'll put together some frags to get you going... I feel your pain of the crash,

 

[Salty Cracker]

I do have to counter one thing...gfo does not rip phosphates out of a tank. I kept a journal of my PO4 levels when I started using GFO and it was 2-3 months before levels stabilized. So much was leeching out of the substrate and rocks that it was impossible for gfo to just strip the tank. Just saying...

 

[Salty Cracker]

(I really should get a job selling GFO)

 

[Nonuser]

Update on the tank?

 

[Poseidon]

Correct me
If I’m Wrong but I believe Zach went back to fresh water



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SamB]

Correct me
If I’m Wrong but I believe Zach went back to fresh water

FW can be rewarding too