A Civil Price Debate

[Cliff]

OK so I thought it was time to have a debate about pricing. As the title says I would like to keep it civil. Lets express our opinions without being rude or without bashing someone sale posts.
So what do you think?
I'll start off. Personally I think it's getting out of hand. In the last 10 or so years I've been in the hobby I see a great escalation of rare/nice coral prices. I mean just because some rich guy CAN pay that price; SHOULD that coral be that price?

 

[heath]

I agree, I am new to corals but, I love how some people make up these fancy names and charge a bloody fortune...I will say some of them are pretty but, what makes them so special.. I can't imagine paying $1000 ssss for a frag..sometimes I think its an ego trip for people...

 

[Poseidon]

its not even the corals- its everything
ive been looking and scouting for a few weeks now, its gotta way out of hand. from the last time i was in it (over a year ago)

Ill use an example we can all understand. (this is in regards to equipment)
If you buy a new car for 50,000, you cant possibly expect to sell it after using it for 5 years for 48,000.00
Realistically, your going to get less than half if that.

On here its not to bad thankfully, but kijiji for example its out of hand lol

 

[Nighthawk26]

There is one reality at play here with some basic concepts that are irrefutable.

Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

One or two rich people being willing to pay for something will not drive the price of corals. I'd like to drive a Ferarri, but I can't afford one so I look to plenty of other options that suit my budget.

I have only been in the hobby a short time, but I have had others, and it's the same. Cars, Home Theater, etc. Some parts are insane money simply because they know people will pay. Or driven by shear marketing. It's not exclusive to this hobby.

Want another example? Diamonds. Sorry @BIGSHOW

I've read countless threads on various sites about people getting upset about coral naming and prices. Not surprised to see you preface your post about being civil. Simply put, it is what it is. Don't agree with it? Don't buy them, or you perpetuate your very frustration.

Just my .02

 

[SamB]

Have to agree that if people are foolish enough to pay the high prices then that becomes the price that the market will bear
Apparently cauliflower is $8 a head but I'm not buying that either !

 

[jeffopentax]

I agree with things being worth whatever someone will pay, but I don't think its fair to newcomers of the hobby. I've seen full setups for sale on kijiji where people claim to have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on it, and are selling for an outrageous price. For someone new, looking to get seemingly everything they need in one shot, there's a good chance they'll get ripped off by one of those greedy sellers. Pi$$es me off when i see those ads!


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[Cliff]

Ever since I have been in the hobby rule of thumb is if it is used it's worth half price. The only exceptions to that or some rare items such as high-end controllers and skimmers but even then they should only be worth three quarters of what you played at the most. Any more than that and your getting ripped off imho

 

[sunnykita]

I just pass by the stuff that's too pricey for my taste, unfortunately for the newbie it can be difficult, that's where our research and this forum come in handy. There is always someone willing to help out. When I started out, I was given all the wrong info and had to start over again. What I don't care for are some of the newer members for sale posts where they post in their ad saying they will report nasty replies, this forum has never had that type of attitude. I understand the other forums operate this way but we haven't ever. I'll excuse it for now, but we don't need that type of attitude !

 

[reef keeper]

I like the nice things in life, and I pay for quality. I do buy some higher end corals, and I feel I get a pretty good value for them. I'm not the guy paying 4-500 an inch, but I will pay 100-150 for a special piece. And that's ok. I also buy $20 frags if they are pretty nice, or 100-200 colonies.

It is what you want to make of it. I will say though - sometimes, a nice piece is just worth what you can stomach paying for it.

 

[AdInfinitum]

The market determines the value and there is no way or need to change that.

Where it can be a problem is when marketing skews the value... Imagine if there was no regulation on dog breeds not that I am into that sort of thing...but if people were able to just claim that the mutt puppies they were selling are purebred whatevers and you wouldn't know differently until they grew up...

With the named corals everyone who has something similar suddenly has a RR this or Tyree that even if they've never seen the real thing let alone have one from the same line. The Wolverine thread is a great example as there are so many wannabe versions of wolverine out there but the genuine first generation RR version is amazing compared to many that came later.

Conversely, there are tons of remarkable corals that come in all the time that don't get names and big price tags so if you don't want to spend large for documented looks you can hunt for gems!

 

[kapelan]

free country.
1. That's my property, I have the right to ask for my property as much as I wont.
2. That's buyer's money, he can offer as much as he is willing to pay.
Finally we will come to the right price.

 

[Nighthawk26]

I just pass by the stuff that's too pricey for my taste, unfortunately for the newbie it can be difficult, that's where our research and this forum come in handy. There is always someone willing to help out. When I started out, I was given all the wrong info and had to start over again. What I don't care for are some of the newer members for sale posts where they post in their ad saying they will report nasty replies, this forum has never had that type of attitude. I understand the other forums operate this way but we haven't ever. I'll excuse it for now, but we don't need that type of attitude !

I'm certain I know one specific recent post you are talking about. I had the same first thought then it dawned on me he likely cut and pasted that post. Went to GTA site, and sure enough. A lot of people over there are real pricks so I can see why it would be said. Granted he should have modified the post for here, but he probably didn't even think about it.

 

[Cliff]

I

There is one reality at play here with some basic concepts that are irrefutable.

Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

One or two rich people being willing to pay for something will not drive the price of corals. I'd like to drive a Ferarri, but I can't afford one so I look to plenty of other options that suit my budget.

I have only been in the hobby a short time, but I have had others, and it's the same. Cars, Home Theater, etc. Some parts are insane money simply because they know people will pay. Or driven by shear marketing. It's not exclusive to this hobby.

Want another example? Diamonds. Sorry @BIGSHOW

I've read countless threads on various sites about people getting upset about coral naming and prices. Not surprised to see you preface your post about being civil. Simply put, it is what it is. Don't agree with it? Don't buy them, or you perpetuate your very frustration.

Just my .02

I am not sure about this car analogy LOL I don't mind paying for research and development. For man-hours. For a company trying to recoup the actual expense they put into it. This is why I am supporting high-end manufactures and I try not to buy rip off companies products. Yet this is none of those... Sure there may be some expense in keeping these rare pieces of coral; yet the price does not reflect The expense of the supplier. We are not paying off millions of dollars in research we are just lining someone's pocket that found a nice piece. Or am I wrong? I just feel it's a shame that because some rich guy is willing to pay a ridiculous amount for something that it drives up the value for the rest of us simple people LOL

 

[AdInfinitum]

If a store or supplier or even a wholesaler gets the odd amazing piece you could put it down to luck and maybe justify that he doesn't "deserve" to charge big bucks. (He got lucky shouldn't he reap the reward???). However when guys like Jay or even Dave (BigShow) are consistently getting amazing pieces it isn't coincidence and they do it with the a comparable level of effort and research and building relationships with collectors as compares to the R&D work of a product developer at a factory.

 

[Nighthawk26]

I

I am not sure about this car analogy LOL I don't mind paying for research and development. For man-hours. For a company trying to recoup the actual expense they put into it. This is why I am supporting high-end manufactures and I try not to buy rip off companies products. Yet this is none of those... Sure there may be some expense in keeping these rare pieces of coral; yet the price does not reflect The expense of the supplier. We are not paying off millions of dollars in research we are just lining someone's pocket that found a nice piece. Or am I wrong? I just feel it's a shame that because some rich guy is willing to pay a ridiculous amount for something that it drives up the value for the rest of us simple people LOL

I hear you, but you're talking now about a billion dollar industry. Where every home has 1-2 cars pretty much. What about some of the losses of pieces these guys see. The time and effort to maintain. The building of relationships to get those key pieces, and the back end money to ensure they are the ones procuring them. There are only so many people bringing this stuff into the country, let's not kid ourselves. Like it or not, this is a niche hobby, and no one is making money on volume.

At the end of the day, it falls back to the simple supply and demand. We aren't even talking physical demand, we are talking marketing. I'll cite the diamond industry again. The entire market is controlled by inventory made available.

In this thread, a different issue has been brought up. That being the misrepresentation of certain corals. If forever reason you WANT that fancy brand coral. For whatever reason. Even if you just want to be able to say you have it, then for new people (me as a perfect example), I have to trust who I'm getting it from. I've tried to do business with some key people (in my opinion) who I choose to trust. I sort of have to just blindly trust them as I continue to learn. I can be a great customer. Piss me off, and or lie to me though... I can be relentless. Anything you gained from me by ripping me off, I will ensure you lose 10 fold and won't stop till it happens. Tie all this back to yet another thread about the great people on THIS forum, and I can say I've met some great people and made a few legit friends along the way who I trust and are able to help me.

Again, the main point. A coral is worth what it's worth... TO YOU.

 

[Cliff]

Yes there should b a premium paid and they do deserve their prices to reflect their hard work. I am not saying that. And personally I don't find Dave absord on pricing. I have purchased many corals from Dave and plan on doing so in the future. I like many will pay a premium for quality. And as my wife will tell u I am not afraid to spend.. What gets me is the thousands of dollars for a Frag just because someone put a fancy name too it. Seems a crazy game; import a beauty full coral and instead of selling it as such; ones make a name for it and all of a sudden it's worth 100x what it would have been worth


Btw I have some cliffiee green star plasma elephant ears for sale. Only $100 a head

 

[TORX]

My 5 cents...

I will never purchase an expensive frag or coral from anyone other then a store. There is no one person who personally imports a coral. Stores work hard, have crazy over head and need to reflect that in the price of their products. If I go to a store and purchase a coral and end up selling the a frag, I do not look to make store prices. I am not relying on the sale for my living wages, I do not have 5 employees, store front location, equipment, CITES, 2AM pick ups at the airport, and the list goes on. I grow coral in my tank because I enjoy it. I sell corals to help pay for the upkeep of my tank. Help pay...not pay for. This is a hobby for me, of which I like to share my experience. Some can attest, I sell things for a lot less then a store would charge, sometimes I sell too cheap. To put it in perspective a little, a store has 5 employees looking to make $30,000 a year, that is $150,000 in wages a year, which is just over $400/day they need to PROFIT. Not just make...profit. Then there is the store location, equipment and the list goes on. I am perfectly happy paying higher prices at a store if there is something there I want. But if I go to someones house and they want the same $80 for a frag as what the store sell it for, I will walk away. Typically I will never pay a person more then 20-30% of what a piece retails for.

People are free to sell here what they want at the price they want, it is up to them. It is in our best interest as adults to not burn a sale. If something does not sell for a while, maybe make a suggestion to lower the price, but there is no reason for anyone to hop on a for sale thread and tell people where to get it cheaper. Sellers should research their item and sell appropriately, but buyers need to take some of that responsibility as well. Yes, someone may get 'burned', but we are adults here who should be able to take responsibilities for our actions.

 

[heath]

What gets me is the thousands of dollars for a Frag just because someone put a fancy name too it. Seems a crazy game; import a beauty full coral and instead of selling it as such; ones make a name for it and all of a sudden it's worth 100x what it would have been worth

exactly what I was trying to say, a reefer will get a nice piece, put a fancy name on it, weather is the correct name or not and then try to sucker new reefers in... it truly is a buyer beware market..it is great that there are some people here that are here for the long haul, not just a quick sale...they are the ones that I will deal with..

 

[unibob]

The Internet has also had a great impact. With more and more forums being started and such, suppliers overseas see what things sell for here, but more so in the US. If a coral used to be "x" dollars from suppliers before the Internet boom, well they have seen that the coral is being sold for "xxx" in the US, that coral is now "xx" from said supplier.

There is a big difference between giving a coral a name and selling a name brand coral. I like naming corals that I buy and have not seen elsewhere, the name never reflects the price, the amount paid for and overall quality of the coral decides the price. I give crazy names because I like too see things I sell succeed and be refragged to sell, easiest way for me to remember is by a CRAZY name

I am a firm believer in the product is worth what people will pay. Is it right to lie to promote a greater $$ sale...no!



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[Nonuser]

Beautiful things are desirable, rare things are scarce. everyone wants rare and beautiful things that is why they are expensive. When things are expensive people tend to take care of them, this is a good thing because if people don't take care of the rare and beautiful things in this world then we will soon have none left.