Evolution In Nutrient Management

[Bayinaung]

I posted this in another forum, but might actually get a better discussion here so here goes:

So I went from managing nutrients to dosing nutrients. I wasn't getting any reading in nitrates and phosphates. My corals were just pale in color. I ran across nitrates helping corals, sps in particular colour up. I read up extensively on nitrate dosing, and began dosing. The next day SPS lost PE. I stopped dosing three days after. a few days later began STN. and Zoas are opening half way only. Now everything is super pale. My nitrates are still 0. so are phos.

Further research tells me: What I had done was by dosing nitrates I had stripped the system of any residual phosphates. Ah. that didn't show up in any threads I read up on nitrate dosing.

So I've pulled out half of my matrix, and low flow for phos reduction. Increased feeding fish 50%. Still nothing.

Now I'm thinking of dosing phosphates. And reading up on tanks with ULNS problems, they are in fact dosing both phosphates and nitrates in conjunction. And in other parts of their regimen, they are adding potassium as supplements.

So, now I just had a thought, why NOT dose plant fertilizer. It has nitrogen, phosphates, and potassium.

Isn't this insane?

 

[TORX]

That is all too much for me. I do not run ULN system, but I do only run around 0.02 phosphates and .18 approx nitrates. My fish make it almost impossible for ULNS.

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[TORX]

Also. Have you double checked your kits are testing accurately?

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[EricTMah]

I've run my system as a ULNS before. For about a yr and a half.
Never really had issues like you're describing with pale corals and zoas not opening. Got decent growth too.

What are your full parameters? Alk, CA and mag when running zero zero with no3 and po4?

There are a few tricks I've learned along the way with running a ULNS.

Sony Xperia Z3

 

[Cliff]

I've run my system as a ULNS before. For about a yr and a half.
Never really had issues like you're describing with pale corals and zoas not opening. Got decent growth too.

What are your full parameters? Alk, CA and mag when running zero zero with no3 and po4?

There are a few tricks I've learned along the way with running a ULNS.

Sony Xperia Z3

Please reveal these tricks

 

[EricTMah]

Running a ULNS is like walking a tight rope. Any little change can cause a major catastrophe.

Keeping Alk at 7.2-7.7 CA at 390-400 mag at 1200-1300 salinity at 35ppt and temp at 76-77 is what I found to be the best success.

I also found using a product like TLF Acro Power on a daily dosing really help with colour and growth.

Without getting into using expensive methods like zeovit. You really have to stay on top of water parameters. Any little fluctuations, especially in Alk can cause sps to rtn or bleach.

As for polyp extension. Best to forget about that going with a ULNS. I never had good polyp extension when I ran my system like that.

Sony Xperia Z3

 

[EricTMah]

Also. A little more details about your system might help me or others direct you in a better way to manage or deal with the ULNS.

Sometimes we go overboard in this hobby. Even in a good way. Like too much nutrient export. In this hobby, there are times that too much of a good thing can be bad.

Sony Xperia Z3

 

[Bayinaung]

Let me start by saying I had GREAT PE prior to dosing nitrates. What I didn't have was GREAT colour. And systems with great colour have nitrates in the 5-15 range and Phos in trace amounts. So what started the PE disappearance was the dosing of nitrates.

It's a small frag system with about US40G total water volume (had a cube set up later on as my display but took it down as 2 was too much work and frag is all i'm keeping now). 1" sand about 30-40lbs of live rock, and HAD 11 L of matrix in the system along with chaeto, filter sock and skimmer as nutrient exports. I dose about 8-10ml of vinegar a day for carbon dosing.

My parameters are in that range Eric quoted. I'm keeping alk to somewhere around 7.3-7.5 on a daily basis. CA is about 400. mag is likely around 1300-1360 range. I use AF probiotic salt. I have very little algae after initial set up. I know my nutrient levels through the eye test, based on how fast algae grows on glass or elsewhere, and how much skimmer collects. I have five fishes, no cuc, they get fed 3x a day pellets 2x frozen 1x, corals get marine snow in evening, occasionally does amino dosing (drop of milk) but not consistently enough.

I will do about 4G water change once a month, not much more. mostly top up for evaporation, and always use the eye test.

I had a "low flow" contraption with some matrix for phos reduction which was taken out, along with about 4-5L of matrix from the sump the other day. Test kits are current, and while they are not "accurate" (not wanting to make this a discussion of test kits) I know from eye test and based on lack of algae AND lack of chaeto growth tells me the test results are in line with what's happening in the tank.

The intention for over use of Matrix was so that the tank can handle any spike in nutrients - which is what has been the cause of many crashes in the past. A couple of my acros did have STN. Others are there but no PE. So I will need to raise the P a bit. wee bit or else I have a feeling acros might STN.

If you look at the thread in RC on siporax/matrix, some are dosing nitrates and phosphates. And given that they are also dosing potassium, it makes sense what we will be dosing will resemble plant fertilizers - N P and K. Which is, hilarious! And more than a few are dosing nutrients. (So in retrospect, the live rocks that leach phosphates may now be a good thing as they are supplying what corals and plankton needs, as long as we can manage the phos level early on with use of efficient biological media such as matrix and siporax.)

Granted, we can't use most of the off the shelf plant ferts. We have to respect the Redfield ratio - which is what caused Phos to crash when I dosed nitrates alone. Increase in nitrates caused plankton growth that used up MORE phosphates in line with redfield ratio. So the best dosing would need to be in the 16:1 N. I may need to up the C portion in there as well: CNP is 106:16:1.

Anyhow on amino acids there's mixed evidence that dosing is not a direct feeding but stimulates feeding. So while a drop of milk is indeed amino acid perhaps it is not in the most available form for corals so I may just go and buy a liquid amino acid.

 

[Bayinaung]

I should add, bonsai acro and montis are all doing great, there's always polyp extension. It's the other acros that have no PE. the clam's got great mantle extension, and aussie Acans always have feeding extension (which doesn't make them look pretty IMO).

 

[TORX]

Ummm, why are you dosing nitrate and phosphate while vinegar dosing? Just reduce the dosing and those levels will come up naturally while keeping the system ballanced. Remember, a balance of nitrate and phosphate is important.

I would not use anything that is not listed as reef safe on the package, you have no idea what other chemicals are in there. There is a reason why you are not allowed to let your pets on the yard after you add fertilizer. Also, do not dose anything you do not test for. Pretty sure that is rule #2 of reef keeping

 

[TORX]

Also, I think fertilizer uses Potassium Nitrate, not Potassium Chloride which is what you would add to a reef tank. Test that level, then for your tank size, you can just get an over the counter potassium additive. Normally water changes is enough, but seeing that you only do 4 gallons once a month, it may be getting low. Personally, my suggestion would be to go to the blanket rule of 10% a week water change and all should be corrected on its own after a short while.

 

[Bayinaung]

So a few days ago I ran into this thread on RC where someone had the exact problem I did.

This post from Myka on RC describes what's going on with my system. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24274358&postcount=531

So she went into nitrate dosing. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24467035&postcount=561

Now she has been able to improve the situation. However it was through an assortment of additives, AND she switched to using AF components 1, 2, 3. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24475445&postcount=569

There's one distinction between her situation and mine - she didn't lose PE. I did.

So it maybe worse. I don't think I need to switch to components 1, 2, 3 as #2 is basically alk dosing. I am going to look strongly at stuff she's dosing in thread #569. I'm already using coral snow.

 

[TORX]

Okay...slow down, you are doing so much to your tank IMHO. A 40 gallon with that little stock should not need a warfare of additives. Simple water changes with regular Instant Ocean should keep your tank just fine. You are also probably feeding your fish way too much, but that is a whole other issue.

Also, dosing vinegar is not dosing nitrates. Dosing vinegar is what you do to lower nitrates even further. It also reduces some phosphates, around 4 to 1 ratio. If you want them to come up, then stop dosing vinegar.

Potassium nitrate is a natural source of nitrogen, and it is useful in fertilizers and pyrotechnics. Potassium chloride, on the other hand, is similar to table salt and is used in the fields of food processing and medicine. So no, you can not use fertilizer for K. There are potassium additives made for reef tanks. That is what I ment by over the counter.

 

[Bayinaung]

TBH I wasn't aiming for ULNS. It just happened that way.

I didn't say I was dosing vinegar to dose nitrates did I? Vinegar dosing is for carbon and yes it's great for nitrate reduction by increasing bacterial growth. I had cut carbon dosing by half. I was doing 20mg a day previously. I am going to cut it by half again though there's the belief that captive reefs have limited carbon sources compared to the ocean with respect to redfield ratio.

I'm not sure if increasing water changes will help the balance the tank as it's LOW in nutrients, not high. So I need to increase nutrients which was the way Myka got out of her issue. There are two ways to increase nutrients - 1) feeding coral, feeding fish 2) dosing. Myka is doing both - increased feeding, plus use of Pohl's extra.

I've increased fish feeding. others on RC have gone 4x and it didn't do anything for their nutrients. So they have gone to dosing successfully. That's where I am at, looking at dosing. KZ advocates use Pohl's extra - which I learned is KNO3 + amino acids. That's nitrates + amino acids. So I'm going to make my own Pohl's extra.

Yes I agree, I will need more fish perhaps 2 more (three if I get a small goby in there) but beyond that IMO it's too crowded - the tank is 36x12x17H.

 

[TORX]

Carbon dosing is used to increase beneficial bacteria in your tank. That bacteria grows to the point where they are able to be removed by the skimmer. That removes the bacteria that has been consuming nitrate and phosphates. Basically your tank is packed with bacteria to the point it is starving out you corals by it eating all the nitrates and phosphates.

So why keep carbon dosing at all? Why did you even start carbon dosing? If you were worried about bacteria, pick up a bottle of it to replenish the tank.

Why add more work, husbandry and cost. Continueing to wean off carbon dosing will in turn decrease the over populated bacteria raising your nutrient levels.


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[EricTMah]

I have to agree 100% with all of @TORX previous posts.
You're over complicating things.
Obviously you're running a ULNS. So why not just remove some of the factors causing the ULNS. Like slowly stopping the vinegar dosing, removing matrix slowly and possibly removing the filter socks for a while.

You're throwing a ton of money in your system to help raise the nutrients in the system. But you have many factors that can easily be fixed without adding countless amounts of chemicals to do so.

Torx recommended to switch to weekly WC's because it will help replenish some of the nutrients that are being used up in your system instead of blindly adding additives.

Seems like you're set in doing it the hard way. So good luck. You do seem to know your stuff about managing a ULNS. But it just confuses me as to why you're going the route you have.

I am no longer running my system as a ULNS. By simply reducing WC's, increasing feedings, removing cheato, and limiting how often I run my skimmer and how often I use filter socks. Since adjusting those simple items. My system now runs at 1-2 no3 and just barely detectable traces of po4.


Sony Xperia Z3

 

[scubasteve]

no offense but the eye test is not reliable at all. i run my system with zero water changes and dont have to do half of what you described. in my experience 0 is as bad as 100. i always keep at least 1ppm for phos and 5ppm nitrate. less than that i lose pe. as for amino acids they are like a metabolism booster allowing them to consume more food more rapidly.

are you using actual milk for amino acids :/

 

[Bayinaung]

I am no longer running my system as a ULNS. By simply reducing WC's, increasing feedings, removing cheato, and limiting how often I run my skimmer and how often I use filter socks. Since adjusting those simple items. My system now runs at 1-2 no3 and just barely detectable traces of po4.


Sony Xperia Z3

There really isn't any thing fancy I"m doing at all - I have a pretty low maintenance system. water change 10% wc once a month, I feed, use skimmer. dose minimal carbon. I clean the glass once every 4-5 days.

So how is this fancy or complicated?

 

[EricTMah]

There really isn't any thing fancy I"m doing at all - I have a pretty low maintenance system. water change 10% wc once a month, I feed, use skimmer. dose minimal carbon. I clean the glass once every 4-5 days.

So how is this fancy or complicated?

I never said "fancy"

All I'm saying is slowly cut down on carbon dosing, stop skimming for a day or two here and there and run the system without a filter sock for a few days a week.

Also you said you're using the probiotic salt as well. Which is also designed as a carbon source to help reduce nitrates. So switching to the af reef salt would be another thing to do in order to raise nutrients.

I went through the same thought process as you when my system was running zero zero. But instead of complicating things with dosing no3 and po4. I just stops using the things that were causing the ULNS.

But to each their own.

Sony Xperia Z3