Brown jelly disease?

[The PITH Column]

Hello all,

In my limited knowledge, I believe I have BJD in my tank somehow. I tried to save two heads of frogspawn as seen in pic. I freed it of the brown jelly, and the heads regressed, but never came back. Now I have a duncan that is hit. I don't have a quarantine tank, so I may put it in my quarantine basket that stays in the tank after teying to free it of jelly, or should I bin the small coral? Sad, but for the need of the rest of the tank.
Suggestions? How do I rid myself of this? I have Rally Pro which list bacterial infections, which I believe BJD is, but is it the correct choice?

Thank you,

Leighton

 

[Pistol]

I would vacuum out the red slime, the tank seems to be immature and still cycling, you could dip the corals in Lugals solution.
Are you dosing bacteria? If so I would stop and let the tank cycle, not sure how many corals and fish you have but it seems like new tank syndrome.
Be patient and wait it out.

 

[The PITH Column]

I would vacuum out the red slime, the tank seems to be immature and still cycling, you could dip the corals in Lugals solution.
Are you dosing bacteria? If so I would stop and let the tank cycle, not sure how many corals and fish you have but it seems like new tank syndrome.
Be patient and wait it out.

Thank you for your reply!

Tank is 3 months old, tons of coraline algae. Anything I put in turns purple. Levels are all zero, water changes and filter maintenance and I've got minimal oil film on water top. I wouldn't say desperate, but I'd be really keen to aquire a Reef Octopus HOB 1000 for this system. It currently has a Fluval 407 plumbed to the bottom. I don't have much room for a sump, so an external or HOB is my thoughts. I can't get the pH up either. Sorry, I do have DipX.

 

[Sasha T]

Objective: It's a little hard for me to say if it's BJD, the pictures are a little overexposed. If I'm seeing what I think I am on the first picture, the right half of the head is a little "plumper" than usual and has turned somewhat transparent while losing most of its color/turned slightly brown? If so, to me that would be BJD.

Anecdotal: I have never successfully treated coral for BJD. Revive, light iodine, coral defense, all nadda. That said, every time I've had BJD it's from excessive stress to the coral; something stung it, or something fell on it, or more commonly I goofed, and I've only lost a single head at a time, and never had the BJD spread to other heads on a colony or elsewhere in the tank.

Opinion: If it were me, on my first tank, I would lop the "infected" head off. I agree with Pistol that the cyano/red slime is indicative of an issue. If your levels (casting aspersions on the tests, not you) really are at zero the tank may have stalled out in its cycle, or the slime is sucking up free nutrients as quickly as they're made. You should always have SOME nitrate in the system to feed the zooxanthellae, otherwise you can starve the coral. With your PH off, test your ALK to see if it's where they need to be, basically anything that's not "clean" ocean water can piss the corals off and stress it to death or weaken it enough for bacteria to take hold. Unless you've got something new (and large) since I saw you last, the duncans should not be sucking that much alk to drop the PH and I'd personally consider turning off the skimmer, and do just water changes for nutrient export for the next little bit, 10% once a week if your other parameters are fine, double that if they're off. I also have some eight.four if you want to try it out, text me if you do.

How close are your 'nems to this duncan?

 

[The PITH Column]

Objective: It's a little hard for me to say if it's BJD, the pictures are a little overexposed. If I'm seeing what I think I am on the first picture, the right half of the head is a little "plumper" than usual and has turned somewhat transparent while losing most of its color/turned slightly brown? If so, to me that would be BJD.

Anecdotal: I have never successfully treated coral for BJD. Revive, light iodine, coral defense, all nadda. That said, every time I've had BJD it's from excessive stress to the coral; something stung it, or something fell on it, or more commonly I goofed, and I've only lost a single head at a time, and never had the BJD spread to other heads on a colony or elsewhere in the tank.

Opinion: If it were me, on my first tank, I would lop the "infected" head off. I agree with Pistol that the cyano/red slime is indicative of an issue. If your levels (casting aspersions on the tests, not you) really are at zero the tank may have stalled out in its cycle, or the slime is sucking up free nutrients as quickly as they're made. You should always have SOME nitrate in the system to feed the zooxanthellae, otherwise you can starve the coral. With your PH off, test your ALK to see if it's where they need to be, basically anything that's not "clean" ocean water can piss the corals off and stress it to death or weaken it enough for bacteria to take hold. Unless you've got something new (and large) since I saw you last, the duncans should not be sucking that much alk to drop the PH and I'd personally consider turning off the skimmer, and do just water changes for nutrient export for the next little bit, 10% once a week if your other parameters are fine, double that if they're off. I also have some eight.four if you want to try it out, text me if you do.

How close are your 'nems to this duncan?

So the cyano or red slime is not coraline? I did a water change today, vacuumed up a bunch of red stuff off the back.
What will turning off my filter for a while do? Just keep things local to the tank?
Once I manage to get some more to break up, I'm going to fill the Fluval 407 with just the initial foam filter, then the rest rocks and carbon.
Nems and frogspawn are on one side, Duncan's and a couply paly on the other; it's pretty cool.

 

[The PITH Column]

Update: I dumped in some tisbe pods today.

 

[Sasha T]

So the cyano or red slime is not coraline? I did a water change today, vacuumed up a bunch of red stuff off the back.
What will turning off my filter for a while do? Just keep things local to the tank?
Once I manage to get some more to break up, I'm going to fill the Fluval 407 with just the initial foam filter, then the rest rocks and carbon.
Nems and frogspawn are on one side, Duncan's and a couply paly on the other; it's pretty cool.

If you can make the pink/red stuff move or lift with a turkey baster/strong water movement, it's cyano/red slime, not coralline algae which needs a razer blade to get it off anything.

You're going to need to do water changes anyway which will hopefully stabilize everything else, but running a sized skimmer at the same time (or over sized, don't know what a Fluval 407 is rated for) will cut your organics really quickly, and keep them low to the point that it could starve the coral and stagger the nitrogen cycle if your system's cycle is incomplete. That's only my opinion on limited experience and reading.

I asked about the 'nems because I knew you had a few, and it's always possible that they can piss off/kill something if it gets enough tentacles on it or the coral is susceptible. But if they're not bumping on each other and the anemones are not appearing in different places day to day you should be fine.

 

[The PITH Column]

If you can make the pink/red stuff move or lift with a turkey baster/strong water movement, it's cyano/red slime, not coralline algae which needs a razer blade to get it off anything.

You're going to need to do water changes anyway which will hopefully stabilize everything else, but running a sized skimmer at the same time (or over sized, don't know what a Fluval 407 is rated for) will cut your organics really quickly, and keep them low to the point that it could starve the coral and stagger the nitrogen cycle if your system's cycle is incomplete. That's only my opinion on limited experience and reading.

I asked about the 'nems because I knew you had a few, and it's always possible that they can piss off/kill something if it gets enough tentacles on it or the coral is susceptible. But if they're not bumping on each other and the anemones are not appearing in different places day to day you should be fine.

OK ya, so this is cyano. So each time I do a water change, I'll suck a bunch of that stuff with it. I do have coraline, which I can see on my powerhead and intake strainer.
The Fluval 407 is rated for 398 gph I believe. Filter that came with the kit. Could I take all the foam and carbon/phosphate media out of the canister and just keep stones in it and keep it running for flow?

Also, what is 8.4? A high pH buffer?
My Alk is at 8.7 dkh with the Hanna Colourometer. Ammonia is a smidgen above 0. Nitrate is same, smidgen above 0. pH is 7.9 I'd say. Used with API marine. I put ALK to 9.5 with baking soda after a water change. I will do another test in a day or two so I can get a usage reading and be more consistent with my dosing. I arbitrarily picked 9.5 dkh, as in the future I want to form the tank to nems/euphylia and duncans, left to right(with proper spacing of course). I can't imagine the 11 duncan heads and 5 heads of frogspawn currently use too much carbonate. Thoughts?

 

[Sasha T]

OK ya, so this is cyano. So each time I do a water change, I'll suck a bunch of that stuff with it. I do have coraline, which I can see on my powerhead and intake strainer.
The Fluval 407 is rated for 398 gph I believe. Filter that came with the kit. Could I take all the foam and carbon/phosphate media out of the canister and just keep stones in it and keep it running for flow?

Also, what is 8.4? A high pH buffer?
My Alk is at 8.7 dkh with the Hanna Colourometer. Ammonia is a smidgen above 0. Nitrate is same, smidgen above 0. pH is 7.9 I'd say. Used with API marine. I put ALK to 9.5 with baking soda after a water change. I will do another test in a day or two so I can get a usage reading and be more consistent with my dosing. I arbitrarily picked 9.5 dkh, as in the future I want to form the tank to nems/euphylia and duncans, left to right(with proper spacing of course). I can't imagine the 11 duncan heads and 5 heads of frogspawn currently use too much carbonate. Thoughts?

Oh, I didn't read your first post closely enough and assumed the Fluval was a skimmer, not a canister filter. I have nothing against them, as my oldest tank uses one, and people like to crap on them but I think they're very efficient and easy to maintain, assuming that you do. Keep the filter running at all times to make sure your bio media stays active and populated. It's a bit of a PitA but clean your filter sponges regularly, ideally with each water change in the early stages (just squeeze them out thoroughly in the saltwater you took out of the tank). When I started my canister system, I added coral too early (mid dinoflagellate stage), but I also didn't run any chemical media (phos remover, carbon), just ceramic rings and sponges, and all export and level maintenance was done via weekly 10 gallon water changes (60 gallons empty system).

The detectable presence of any ammonia or nitrite would suggest that your cycle is incomplete, but when it's near-zero I find tests can be a little misleading. I've never relied solely on water testing to determine when my tanks were ready, I've always used the algae cycle (diatom>cyano>dino) and THEN confirmed with a test once the dinos started to die off and were getting replaced with green hair and/or bubble algae. Some would suggest that PH of 7.9 is a little low, but afaik it's hospitable to marine life, especially if you don't include SPS. Rather than chasing higher ALK, especially since the tank is fairly new, try and maintain the ALK+PH that your freshly made salt water has, which will depend on the salt you use, I think the stability is going to be more beneficial than the "ideal range" this early on. Once the tank is stabilized, then you can start bringing your levels up, but if your salt mixes at a lower ALK than you want to maintain I would suggest considering researching other mixes and when you do decide to switch, bring the tank up to those levels slowly in the week(s) before you use the new mix.

Yes, eight.four (that's it's actual name, the words instead of numbers) is a bicarbonate+carbonate alkalinity and PH additive. I haven't heard of people using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in saltwater, only soda ash (sodium carbonate), but that doesn't mean anything other than a suggestion to compare/contrast the dosing and effects if you haven't already. And no, I don't see the duncans and frogspawn being the main contributors to your ALK drop.

Side note, if you notice a drop in water movement as your pump heads get encrusted with coralline, you can get food grade citric acid cheap at Bulk Barrel/Bulk Barn. Less acidic than white vinegar, so it should be a little kinder to your gear, but it does the job of eating away at coralline and doesn't stink like all hell, and less of an issue if you happen to spill it like I do haha

 

[The PITH Column]

Oh, I didn't read your first post closely enough and assumed the Fluval was a skimmer, not a canister filter. I have nothing against them, as my oldest tank uses one, and people like to crap on them but I think they're very efficient and easy to maintain, assuming that you do. Keep the filter running at all times to make sure your bio media stays active and populated. It's a bit of a PitA but clean your filter sponges regularly, ideally with each water change in the early stages (just squeeze them out thoroughly in the saltwater you took out of the tank). When I started my canister system, I added coral too early (mid dinoflagellate stage), but I also didn't run any chemical media (phos remover, carbon), just ceramic rings and sponges, and all export and level maintenance was done via weekly 10 gallon water changes (60 gallons empty system).

The detectable presence of any ammonia or nitrite would suggest that your cycle is incomplete, but when it's near-zero I find tests can be a little misleading. I've never relied solely on water testing to determine when my tanks were ready, I've always used the algae cycle (diatom>cyano>dino) and THEN confirmed with a test once the dinos started to die off and were getting replaced with green hair and/or bubble algae. Some would suggest that PH of 7.9 is a little low, but afaik it's hospitable to marine life, especially if you don't include SPS. Rather than chasing higher ALK, especially since the tank is fairly new, try and maintain the ALK+PH that your freshly made salt water has, which will depend on the salt you use, I think the stability is going to be more beneficial than the "ideal range" this early on. Once the tank is stabilized, then you can start bringing your levels up, but if your salt mixes at a lower ALK than you want to maintain I would suggest considering researching other mixes and when you do decide to switch, bring the tank up to those levels slowly in the week(s) before you use the new mix.

Yes, eight.four (that's it's actual name, the words instead of numbers) is a bicarbonate+carbonate alkalinity and PH additive. I haven't heard of people using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in saltwater, only soda ash (sodium carbonate), but that doesn't mean anything other than a suggestion to compare/contrast the dosing and effects if you haven't already. And no, I don't see the duncans and frogspawn being the main contributors to your ALK drop.

Side note, if you notice a drop in water movement as your pump heads get encrusted with coralline, you can get food grade citric acid cheap at Bulk Barrel/Bulk Barn. Less acidic than white vinegar, so it should be a little kinder to your gear, but it does the job of eating away at coralline and doesn't stink like all hell, and less of an issue if you happen to spill it like I do haha

Okay, so I have an update.
I normally do a 7.5% weekly water change, as the math works out for the amount of water I use and the bucket size, etc. Today I did a 15%, and eradicated a large amount of red slime.
In that process I also put in a 5.5 lb Marco rock arch I made over a couple days, for stressed fish or inverts or others to find/hide. I took out all carbonate and phosphate media, and kept foam and bio balls and put remainder 1.5 lbs of Marco pieces in the Fluval 407 filter basket layers. That gives me total 47 lbs total in a 66.5 gal tank. I added no extra bicarbonate other than what's in the Fritz. Sad duncan head is gone. The only nems that like to move are the rainbow ones I got from you. I think mostly because the system is new, they are small and I have a decent flow. 40x system changeover I believe?? I'm sure they will settle.
I have significantly more crevices for everything now. About 80% less red slime since first post.
I have 8 fish, not a ton waste wise I would think??
So I'd say since the head with BJD is gone, I've solved this issue, but I welcome the cycling suggestions and thoughts.

Thanks

 

[Pistol]

sounds like your moving in the right direction, go slow and be patient, I wouldn't make any more changes for a while, just keep an eye on your params

 

[Sasha T]

What Pistol said.

Not gonna lie, heart jumped a little when you said you have eight fish in the system, but of course there's a world of difference between the bioloads of 8 gobies (or similar) vs 8 tangs (or similar).

 

[The PITH Column]

What Pistol said.

Not gonna lie, heart jumped a little when you said you have eight fish in the system, but of course there's a world of difference between the bioloads of 8 gobies (or similar) vs 8 tangs (or similar).

Haha OK, that's fair. So I have 5 clowns, a 2.5 inch coral beauty angel, a 2.5 inch blue hippo, and a 2 inch yellow watchman goby. And inverts(with a big coral banded and an urchin). The coral beauty is the worst really with 6 inch shits. Lol
I was actually thinking of getting a 120 gal with a sump and move everything to that, but I got laid off. So I do plan to upside for my fish.
Also to what you said before Sasha, I do have three bubble ages form and a bunch of green hair algae. And a solid copepod base coming out early evening, and I'm seeing some small wormlike things moving around. Are those decent bio diversity indicators towards cycling?

 

[Sasha T]

Haha OK, that's fair. So I have 5 clowns, a 2.5 inch coral beauty angel, a 2.5 inch blue hippo, and a 2 inch yellow watchman goby. And inverts(with a big coral banded and an urchin). The coral beauty is the worst really with 6 inch shits. Lol
I was actually thinking of getting a 120 gal with a sump and move everything to that, but I got laid off. So I do plan to upside for my fish.
Also to what you said before Sasha, I do have three bubble ages form and a bunch of green hair algae. And a solid copepod base coming out early evening, and I'm seeing some small wormlike things moving around. Are those decent bio diversity indicators towards cycling?

Hippo and beauty will definitely bump the ammonia rate up, they love food, they're quite active and they have a higher overall mass. It's still doable, but it makes the water changes that much more vital. If it were me I would probably go bigger with them if I could, 20-25% (12-15 gallons) per week.

The 'pods and macro algae (pest though it is) is good, they're reduce the amount of ammonia entering the water and lock some of the nitrate like a refugium/algae reactor would. As to them being a sign of cycling, not necessarily, pods can be pretty parameter tolerant and algae LOVES nitrate, which your fish are probably making plenty of.

What kind of wormlike things? They look like caterpillars but with white hair on them?

 

[The PITH Column]

Hippo and beauty will definitely bump the ammonia rate up, they love food, they're quite active and they have a higher overall mass. It's still doable, but it makes the water changes that much more vital. If it were me I would probably go bigger with them if I could, 20-25% (12-15 gallons) per week.

The 'pods and macro algae (pest though it is) is good, they're reduce the amount of ammonia entering the water and lock some of the nitrate like a refugium/algae reactor would. As to them being a sign of cycling, not necessarily, pods can be pretty parameter tolerant and algae LOVES nitrate, which your fish are probably making plenty of.

What kind of wormlike things? They look like caterpillars but with white hair on them?

They look like tiny skinny centipedes, very small

 

[Sasha T]

They look like tiny skinny centipedes, very small

Do they look like this? (red to blue bodies starting directly under the lower light reflection and trailing right)
If so, those are bristle worms and I would highly recommend you start wearing gloves when working in the 'tank, at the very least when messing on the sandbed. The blue kind are often seen as beneficial detritivores (aka free CUC), but there is a variation that's all red called fireworms that are vicious little coral and fish eating bastards. That said, I've never seen a red one but I've seen tons of tanks with the blue ones.

I'm actually "nursing" a bristle worm sting right now, a swollen finger which is very sensitive to touch. The swelling usually takes two-three days to go down depending on how many times it stuck me.

 

[wind412]

If me, I’ll do 70-80% water change, add FritzZyme Turbostart 900, and after a week, do 20% water change. If you can, add some media block.

 

[Painter Steve]

Get your Phos & Nitrate levels up. What your Mag sitting at?? Only time I’ve lost Euphyllia’s to BJD was when my Nutrient levels dropped to low or Mag dropped.