Grounding Probes, GFIs, current, voltage,etc. for the electrically ungifted

jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
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London
As some of you may be aware, I have a yellow tang and cherub angel with HLLE.  I also have seen the potential start of it on my regal angel.  There are a few general theories of why this may be occurring, including carbon use and diet.  I have been using Selcon now and a more varied diet with my fish for a number of months and haven't seen any real change.  I haven't been running carbon now on my tank for quite some time (been at least 6 months).  Things don't seem to be getting worse, but they also don't seem to be getting better.  The fish appear healthy and otherwise eat like pigs and are fatties.

Another potential theory on the cause of HLLE is stray voltage.  A more proper term for this (after reading what I just read) may be tank current, not voltage (given that voltage is a potential, and current is the actual flow of electrons).  This article I'll link to below suggests that it is the current that runs through our tanks that may be harmful to our fish and corals, and not stray voltage.  The article suggests that by using a grounding probe, one might actually create an avenue for current to flow through the tank, were one did not exist before without the grounding probe.  However, removing the grounding probe may create a situation where the tank is less safe to the reefkeeper.  So, how is this balance achieved - safety for the keeper, and lack of current flow through the tank to the benefit of the fish/corals?  How would one go about ensuring there is no current flowing through the tank, other than ensuring all equipment is newer, undamaged, and in decent working order?  Reason I ask as I want to ensure there is no current going through my tank that doesn't need to be, but also I want to be safe.  The only potential source of problematic current I can think of, other than skimmer, powerheads, reactor pumps, heater, and return pump lol all of which are regularly maintained and working well is my T5 lighting.  I sometimes feel a bit of a buzz over my reflectors, but they aren't contacting the water, although they may be contributing current to the water and creating a path through the grounding probe?  They are DIY'd and have always worked fine, but I wonder if there is more I can do to create a current free water situation. I've never felt anything in side of my tank.

Here is the article on grounding probes and current: http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

Anyhow, seems like there are quite a few on here who are gifted electrically, both from a practical and theoretical sense, and thought it was worthy of a discussion.  Any insights are greatly appreciated on tank current, grounding probes, and of course using a GFCI as a base of one's tank electrical centre.  Hopefully others like me who have a relatively poor understanding of electricity can benefit from it also. 
 

Duke

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Sep 20, 2011
i've never used a grounding probe myself. if you remove it can you feel any voltage in the tank? its possible you still might not even. for example one time i was buying some frags and put my hand in a frag tank and instantly you could feel a nice tingle from stray voltage or whatever, but with my other hand you couldn't feel anything, it was a small cut on my finger that was allowing me to get shocked on that hand only. Does your skin shield you in somehow or is it just less sensitive to the shock?
 

Reef Hero

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May 27, 2012
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Lucan
The whole current and voltage theory you described it absolutely correct but it applies always and not just to tanks.... It is the current (measured in amperes) that is deadly. This is why gfcis are designed to monitor current between hot and neutral....the amount of amperes leavin should also be returning back otherwise they have found another path which is what we want to avoid...
Voltage is simple like you mentioned, a measurement of potential difference which is need in order for electrons to flow and this create a current.... You cannot have current flow without a potential difference created between two points. This is why you could have current ready to flow out of your tank if the electrical cords or such are damaged.... This current will have no path or potential difference to flow unless we create one.... Like by sticking your hand in the water or using a grounding probe or basically anything that would conduct to create a path from your tank water to an outside ground somewhere....
You can apply this theory to birds or animals who sit on single power lines.... In their case it is kind of the same idea because although they are touching high power lines capable of flowing large amperes there is simply no potential difference for it to flow. Many have argued that salt creep can create enough of a path (potential difference) for current to flow out of your tank to closest grounding point. A ground probe is no different than you sticking your hand on the water with bare feet IMO...
This will no doubt create enough of a potential difference for current to flow if there is leaking current in your tank and then the gfci should trip because the current will no longer be equal between hot and neutral because some or a lot will be goin through you and to ground. The gfci is designed to operate with no more than 5ms after sensing the current difference so you should not even experience a shock or current flow. I do not run a ground probe only because if you do then you will always have a potential difference so as soon as a current leak happens your gfci will trip. I don't want this happening when I'm not around....
You could buy a ground probe and plug it in and as long as the gfci is working and it doesn't trip then you do not have any current leaks from your equipment.... Not sure how clear all this for you but I can certainly clarify further if needed.
 

jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
Location
London
No, I've put my hand in the tank before with no grounding probe and felt nothing, just thought it was a good thing to have on the tank in general for safety purposes.  I was under the impression too that the grounding probe will remove any stray voltage, and in essence, make the water "electricity free" and be a better environment for the fish.  That thinking now appears seriously flawed.  Not sure about your skin and your cut and the feeling of shock - I would expect a cut in saltwater to sting a bit initially regardless of stray current though too. 
 

jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
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London
Reef Hero link said:
The gfci is designed to operate with no more than 5ms after sensing the current difference so you should not even experience a shock or current flow. I do not run a ground probe only because if you do then you will always have a potential difference so as soon as a current leak happens your gfci will trip. I don't want this happening when I'm not around....
You could buy a ground probe and plug it in and as long as the gfci is working and it doesn't trip then you do not have any current leaks from your equipment.... Not sure how clear all this for you but I can certainly clarify further if needed.

I'm not using a GFCI at the moment - I've got the reefkeeper power bars that are plugged into an outlet that is on a circuit breaker.  What I'm thinking I should do then is install a GFCI, and lose the grounding probe.  In theory I guess I could have a current going through the water through the grounding probe, but since there is no GFCI, I wouldn't know about it.

Is there any risk of NOT having the grounding probe with the GFCI?  I'm guessing a big NO if you don't feel the need to use one.  In theory if something malfunctions, the GFCI should automatically trip and then I would know about it?  I would also be concerned that the GFCI would trip frequently or when I'm not around, resulting in disaster. 
 

jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
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London
Jewel link said:
Grounding probes are so cheap, I like to use one, not sure what HLLE is?

Head and Lateral Line Erosion - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/
 

Reef Hero

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May 27, 2012
Location
Lucan
I have witn
Duke link said:
i've never used a grounding probe myself. if you remove it can you feel any voltage in the tank? its possible you still might not even. for example one time i was buying some frags and put my hand in a frag tank and instantly you could feel a nice tingle from stray voltage or whatever, but with my other hand you couldn't feel anything, it was a small cut on my finger that was allowing me to get shocked on that hand only. Does your skin shield you in somehow or is it just less sensitive to the shock?

I have personally witnessed older electricians with very touch dry skinned hands be able to touch live wires without shock whereas I got shocked.... I've also seen people be silly and jump in the air while touching live wires without getting shocked.... It's all about creating a path or potential difference for current to flow
 

spyd

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Jan 31, 2011
Location
Kitchener, Ontario
I would honestly remove the grounding probe and install GFI's on any circuit that your aquarium equipment is connected to. As Ben mentioned and the article states, you are potentially adding a point that allows current to flow through your tank instead of keeping it isolated to the malfunctioning equipment.

Great conversation by the way!
 

jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
Location
London
spyd link said:
I would honestly remove the grounding probe and install GFI's on any circuit that your aquarium equipment is connected to. As Ben mentioned and the article states, you are potentially adding a point that allows current to flow through your tank instead of keeping it isolated to the malfunctioning equipment.

Great conversation by the way!

That is what I'm thinking.  Even if it doesn't help the HLLE situation, for safety sake definitely a better arrangement!  Another thing to add to the to do list, but an important one.  Do you use a grounding probe Derek? 
 

Reef Hero

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May 27, 2012
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Lucan
Here's the thing about grounding probes..... They alone will save no ones life or risk of being shocked... It is the gfci that senses the leaking or non returning current and then operates to cut power. Even with a grounding probe installed, without a proper working gfci protected circuit to your tank it is useless.... Sure it creates a constant path to ground but who cares because we can do the same by putting our hands in the water.... You need a gfci! I'm thinking about selling them at wholesale cost at the upcoming frag swap because I am a big believer in having one installed and I made a point last year to make sure all vendors had their equipment protected with a class a gfci receptacle. Would people be interested in gfci receptacles? I can likely buy and sell for $15... That's a really good deal and I wouldn't be able to go any less...
 

AdamS

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Oct 7, 2012
Location
London, Ontario
Ben hit the nail on the head, I will help explain it a bit further.

Remember those steel balls that you put your hand on and make your hair stand up? Those create a voltage, and when you have your hand on them, your whole body is at that same voltage. Well because you have rubber shoes on, that voltage has nowhere to go (voltage always wants to go to the ground) so you are fine. We would say that their is a 'potential difference between you and the ground'. The problem would arise if you came into contact (electrically) with the ground. If you took your shoes off, and stood in water, the voltage between you and the ground would be different (potential difference) and current would flow, THROUGH YOU. Current flowing through you is bad.

One more explanation. Imagine voltage like water pressure and current like water flow. When you have a water valve closed (no path to ground), the water will not flow, but you still have pressure (voltage). Open the valve (connect to ground) and the water will flow (current). Now imagine you have 2 water pipes with the same pressure (voltage), if you connected those pipes with a union, the pressure pushing one way would be the same as the pressure pushing in the opposite direction, and the water would not flow (the voltage difference between the pipes is 0, thus the current does not flow).

Back to your tank, if I were an engineer I would suggest that the safest thing to do would be:

1. ALL power for the aquarium is on a GFCI, no exceptions.
2. Have a grounding probe that you ONLY put in the tank when you are going to work on it. That way you are not deliberately creating a path for current to flow in your tank, unless your hands are in it. If you did have a problem, the GFCI would catch it as soon as you put the probe in.

Note: GFCI's will not nuisance trip, if they trip, there is a problem.

I am just around the corner from you, if you want help, we could install GFCI's on your whole tank in less than 2 hours and at a cost of roughly $50.
 

jroovers

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Location
London
Reef Hero link said:
You need a gfci! I'm thinking about selling them at wholesale cost at the upcoming frag swap because I am a big believer in having one installed and I made a point last year to make sure all vendors had their equipment protected with a class a gfci receptacle. Would people be interested in gfci receptacles? I can likely buy and sell for $15... That's a really good deal and I wouldn't be able to go any less...

That makes sense, thanks for elaborating.  Grounding probes are not what I thought they were lol.  I would buy a GFCI while at the swap, but I'm thinking maybe I should do this sooner rather than later.  $15 seems very reasonable, I haven't looked into it and not sure what they retail for, but sounds pretty cheap.  A sheet with a short explanation of why they important and what they do might not be a bad idea to include with it as well. 

AdamS link said:
Current flowing through you is bad.

One more explanation. Imagine voltage like water pressure and current like water flow. When you have a water valve closed (no path to ground), the water will not flow, but you still have pressure (voltage). Open the valve (connect to ground) and the water will flow (current). Now imagine you have 2 water pipes with the same pressure (voltage), if you connected those pipes with a union, the pressure pushing one way would be the same as the pressure pushing in the opposite direction, and the water would not flow (the voltage difference between the pipes is 0, thus the current does not flow).

Back to your tank, if I were an engineer I would suggest that the safest thing to do would be:

1. ALL power for the aquarium is on a GFCI, no exceptions.
2. Have a grounding probe that you ONLY put in the tank when you are going to work on it. That way you are not deliberately creating a path for current to flow in your tank, unless your hands are in it. If you did have a problem, the GFCI would catch it as soon as you put the probe in.

Note: GFCI's will not nuisance trip, if they trip, there is a problem.

I am just around the corner from you, if you want help, we could install GFCI's on your whole tank in less than 2 hours and at a cost of roughly $50.

That is a good way of summarizing it, I can visualize that, which helps.  Thanks for the tips with the GFCI, and with the grounding probe when only working in the tank, never thought of that.  Realistically, not sure if I would do that, given my laziness (I would already have a GFCI already lol if I didn't have some of that trait).  In terms of installing, thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that.  Didn't you have to redo your electrical in the late summer/early fall?  As I recall, we both had problems after that one crazy thunderstorm and power outage we had in west London, complete with funnel clouds.  My problem was that one of the screws in the electrical outlet box was creating an arc and short.  Manifested itself after that outage and significant surge we must have had. 
 

AdamS

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Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Location
London, Ontario
jroovers link said:
Didn't you have to redo your electrical in the late summer/early fall?  As I recall, we both had problems after that one crazy thunderstorm and power outage we had in west London, complete with funnel clouds.  My problem was that one of the screws in the electrical outlet box was creating an arc and short.  Manifested itself after that outage and significant surge we must have had. 

That was such a coincidence. When we spoke last, I had not found my problem and you had, turns out I had the EXACT same problem caused by the same storm, very weird. Anyways I fixed it and have not had a problem since. I guess the one difference was that the circuit I had a problem with had nothing to do with my tank, which was nice.
 

jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
Location
London
That is quite the coincidence.  :eek:  In hindsight I should have just installed a GFCI back then, but I was sort of in a rush to get things back up and running. 
 

Darryl_V

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Jun 29, 2011
Location
Woodstock, Ontario
Petercar link said:
i was told yu dont want a ground probe ,,cuz if yu have one yu womt know theres something wrong  versus if yu dont have one and get a schock then yu know to fix it

Well you always want a GFCI on every aquarium.  So if you have a grounding probe and there is a problem it will trip the GFCI on its own.  If you dont have a grounding probe you may just trip the grounding probe yourself.  Its not a problem if you have a good functioning GFCI. 

IF you have a GFCI and are feeling a tingle, well your just not getting enough to trip the GFCI.  I believe its 5mA, very small.

All tanks contain some stray voltage.  Even properly working pumps and equipment in the aquarium can induce voltages into the water column.  A real equipment problem is one where there is a short, giving off 12,24vdc or 120VAC.  These are generally the voltages aquarium equipment run at.
 

Victoss

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Aug 6, 2012
Location
Kitchener ON
NEVER run a tank with a grounding probe if you DO NOT have a GFCI. What will happen is you touch something that is hot for example a light fixture that has a cut/short with your arm and you stick your hand in the tank. Now you have a nice toasty arm or your dead if your using both hands. Breakers don't trip fast enough to protect you, breakers are only meant to protect your home. GFCIs on the other hand will trip the instant they dectect an imbalance and you may get a very little shock at worst.

This being said I would still recommend the use of a grounding probe with a GFCI because now lets say your water is in contact with a neutral conductor (ie cut in your powerhead) and you touch your hot shorted fixture again, the GFCI won't trip without a grounding probe because there is no imbalance, all the current is coming from the neutral to the hot equally but going through you.

You do bring up a good point about stray current though and in my tank personally there is no equipment in the display, only MP40s which do not introduce a cord into the tank, so I did not put a grounding probe in the display but I do have one in my sump.

Now being that not everyone has MP40s you could still leave the display ungrounded which would only leave your 2 powerheads a source for voltage, compared to all of your equipment, and ground the sump. Now the only problem with this theory is how conductive is the path between the sump and display with all that water running down, I would guess very. So this may not be a solution.
 

Pistol

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Aug 16, 2012
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Corunna
I run all circuits on multiple GFCIs, I have an EB4 and an EB8 on separate GFCIs with heaters plugged into each in case 1 trips, I keep a ground probe in at all times because lets face it if you only put it in to do work on the tank then you will forget. If something happens to trip a GFCI then you might as well know about right away, it's no different then a power outage, you need to be prepared, I will get an email from my controller.
GFCIs like everything are fallible and sometimes fail to trip in which case the ground probe would give a path of least resistance and possibly cause the circuit breaker to trip and either way it could be a life saver.
 
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