Disappointed With Today’s Shopping

[monizb]

Well today I went to Toronto to the Christmas market with my wife and kids and on way back hit ikea ect then stopped in at big als in Mississauga... lots of fish but lots of dead fish and tanks as well fish looked stress and corals where not very colourful corals for $100 and up and Kenya tree for like $60 and brown zoas polyps for $50 I don’t get the prices of these corals today it’s crazy the amounting money some of the stores are asking and even People this use to be a fun hobby buying ect it’s Becoming a rip off I think even the price on fish and inverts are. Crazy I don’t leave a store today with out leaving $200 on just two small things I use to buy coral big corals not frags at $100 for 3 in the Mississauga stores [emoji3062]


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[RobH.]

I don't get it either must be some people are buying the stuff I can't see why . I usually give a piece of kenya or devils hand to people I meet just getting into reefs I always have a few pieces hanging around .

 

[harleymike]

It seems like it is more Toronto way. But ya, some prices are just nuts.

 

[monizb]

It seems this way as well I think that’s my opinion


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[EricTMah]

I completely agree that the cost of this hobby has sky rocketed in the past few years.

But other factors that impact this other than vendors and private sellers gouging because people are paying it. Is, keep in mind that our oceans are under a lot of stress due to global warming, pollution and over fishing/harvesting. A few places has put a ban on livestock on being taken from the wild and exported. Which I feel is a step in the right direction. But what this does is allows for a higher demand which leads to much higher prices. People pay it, so vendors keep increasing the price.

Look at it this way. When the cost of crude oil goes up, so does the cost of gas to the end user. When the cost of crude oil drops, do our prices drop? Nope! Same scenario here.

If people are willing to pay it and there is a demand for it. Then prices will continue to rise and rise. Regardless if the cost of importing these animals remain the same.

I remember paying $19.99 for a potters angel when I first started in the hobby. I saw one at a store last week listed for $119.99. That's a hell of an inflation for 25yrs

S8

 

[Monnishan]

I hear ya. Bought a Potter's Saturday at Discount Dragon Aquarium beside Big Al's Mississauga for 90 and felt 8 did good. Fish there are always in real good health

 

[Salty Cracker]

Lol, it's not 'global warming' that's ruining the oceans, it's drilling rigs pouring millions of gallons of crude oil, or wrecked oil ships, or tsunami garbage and overfishing. Global warming is just something they made up so they can tax us on unicorn farts (also, it's now 'climate change' because people started to notice that it wasn't really getting any warmer.)

 

[EricTMah]

Lol, it's not 'global warming' that's ruining the oceans, it's drilling rigs pouring millions of gallons of crude oil, or wrecked oil ships, or tsunami garbage and overfishing. Global warming is just something they made up so they can tax us on unicorn farts (also, it's now 'climate change' because people started to notice that it wasn't really getting any warmer.)

Whatever it is. Our oceans are in trouble no matter what is the cause

S8

 

[Salty Cracker]

The whole planet is in trouble...but only so far as the living organisms on it. The earth will do just fine even if we eradicate ourselves with nukes, toxins, and gluten. It will just cruise on for a few billion more years. We're all temporary so drive all the V8's you can, while you can

 

[EricTMah]

The whole planet is in trouble...but only so far as the living organisms on it. The earth will do just fine even if we eradicate ourselves with nukes, toxins, and gluten. It will just cruise on for a few billion more years. We're all temporary so drive all the V8's you can, while you can

Lol gluten

S8

 

[Jewel]

I laughed at that as well, Gluten, leave it to Salty, I went to Toronto about 2 months ago and was very disappointed as well.

I had to pick up a light in Scarberia and thought I'd drop in at NAFB, boy has that place fallen off the earth, I know it was never great, just shipment day I guess. It was nice to see John though and I did buy a big bucket of D&D for 90 bucks but really the Coral and fish were terrible.
I was gonna go to Dundas St in Mississauga but ran out of time but I did go to the Coral Box on Marlee, I grew up just around the corner, has that area changed or did I even notice it growing up Wow. Anyway
Coral Box, really nice people, I get there and the guys cutting up frags on his band saw, he had a couple of dozen 3 head Acans in no time.

I left there with an MP10QD, Hanna Checker Phosphate Meter and extra box of media, an 8 headed Blasto and a 2 headed Blasto a really nice big frag of War Coral and a 3 headed Acan. And I spent 650 bucks, crazy, I thought I was in the old Reef Raft on Dundas, I should of hit those stores, I'll get there in the summer.

The only pay off was I went to pick up a 50 gallon plastic tank from a guy in Milton and ended up filling my vehicle with all his stuff he had in his garage, another Reefer with more money than brains.

Yes the store are expensive, I think with all the Frag shows that all these stores are selling frags up the whahoo, I'll pay for a Coral but no more frags, I'll start a Frag Tank and have my own frags. That 100 dollar Blasto is sweet though.

 

[Jewel]

O what did I get from the guy in Milton, a Dosing system, never used still in the boxes, the doser, 3 tall containers and two shorties that I traded Jack for a 6 headed Frogspawn and a 5 headed hammer, great colour omg and big wow 3 mushrooms the size of your palm and some Zoas, great trade, thanks Jack,
A 6 stage RO/ DI with enough filters to last 5 years even had an inline TDS meter on a big bag of DI resin. I also got 2 Maxijets 1200 still in the box, 3 ATO, a MAG 9.5, a few Korallias, the 50 gallon tank and a few other things for 250.00. what a deal omg. I needed the RO/DI for sure and the tank, is it ever nice having 50 gallons of 0 TDs water anytime you need it. I put the 9.5 in the bottom of the tank, PVC system to circulate and pump off into buckets, o ya heaters x 3, what a score, I deserve it

 

[Jewel]

I've been going to the Reef store in Burlington, can't think of the name, anyway great guy, so helpful. I love him as long as he keeps selling me 30 dollar Corals that is.
My daughter lives there so it's nice to get down there, I picked up a frag, yes a frag of Pulsing Xenia, 30 bucks and a Colony of Green Bird nest for 30 bucks, go figure and 4 big Turbos for 4 bucks a piece, gotta love seeing all those Radions when you walk in there, I bought some Zoas, they were a bright pink when I bought them and now under T5HO they're brown WTF. Anyway great shop,

 

[BIGSHOW]

It’s actually pretty simple to explain....

For corals..

1. Corals are banned from everywhere but Australia.
2. Australia corals were already expensive but now due to the increased demand (total demand) there prices have skyrocketed
3. You want Coral? You will have to pay crazy prices just to try and bring a shipment in, otherwise there is 50 suppliers/stores that are right behind you throwing $100 bills at them (or should I say $1000 bills)
4. Due to the lack of a availability of suppliers and ultimately corals, they sell to the highest bidder ...there is no love in this part of the game and if you don’t want to pay there prices they move along to the 100 people waiting behind you, zero negotiation and zero loyalty.

For fish....
1. All fish imports out of indo are now banned (somewhat Hawaii as well)
2. Due to the ban, existing indo fish supplies are limited and finite so if you want an indo fish then you got to pay for it, you may never see it for sale again. That is the new reality
3. Philippines and a few other places that are still open now have an increase in demand as fallout of the other bans in place (similar again to the coral situation)....as a result of the increased demand there fish prices also increase...again you don’t want to pay there price? No problem there is again, 100 stores/suppliers willing to pay it.

If you hobbyists dont want to pay the higher prices, importers and suppliers in Canada just won’t bring in shipments. I understand you may think prices are unfair or crazy, but in the global sale of corals, prices are based on supply and demand, huge over demand with not even close to the amount of supply needed. I can tell you that the people importing in corals are already cutting there margins substantially which leads to less profit which leads to an increase risk to the importer. Some have just simply decided to stop importing which again leads to a local supply and demand problem, which leads to higher prices. Canada is not even on the radar for suppliers....reason being very few importers in Canada have 30k to drop on one shipment to maybe turn around and make 5k...I ask yourself this....would your risk 30k to make 5 maybe 10k? Now that 5-10k maybe took 2-3 months to make...What other expenses are incurred during that 2-3 months of trying to make that 5-10k? Doa, maintenance costs, rent, insurance power etc. All of these are cost factors which take away from the bottom line...now how much profit did you make in that 2-3 month period? Now is that sustainable? Was that worth the risk? See where I am going?

The golden years are done, except it or move on...and I say this with the best intentions

Maybe that wasn’t so simple of a reason? Lol

Cheers,
Dave

 

[TORX]

Well said Dave. I had a discussion recently with another wholesaler who had the same explanation. I gained a lot of respect for retail stores at that point. There was a lot that I never took into consideration when typically purchasing from 'basement' frag tanks. I try to do a lot more retail now and support both the community and the retailers. Yes, it costs me more sometimes and other times I am just in need for a deal.

 

[Salty Cracker]

My frag prices just went up.

 

[Winks]

Well said Dave. I had a discussion recently with another wholesaler who had the same explanation. I gained a lot of respect for retail stores at that point. There was a lot that I never took into consideration when typically purchasing from 'basement' frag tanks. I try to do a lot more retail now and support both the community and the retailers. Yes, it costs me more sometimes and other times I am just in need for a deal.

Not only do you support your the community and the retailers, when was the last time a "basement" frag tank has helped you out when one of the corals you bought from him doesn't make it? Most retailers will at least try to make it right.

 

[Big_Als_London]

It’s actually pretty simple to explain....

For corals..

1. Corals are banned from everywhere but Australia.
2. Australia corals were already expensive but now due to the increased demand (total demand) there prices have skyrocketed
3. You want Coral? You will have to pay crazy prices just to try and bring a shipment in, otherwise there is 50 suppliers/stores that are right behind you throwing $100 bills at them (or should I say $1000 bills)
4. Due to the lack of a availability of suppliers and ultimately corals, they sell to the highest bidder ...there is no love in this part of the game and if you don’t want to pay there prices they move along to the 100 people waiting behind you, zero negotiation and zero loyalty.

For fish....
1. All fish imports out of indo are now banned (somewhat Hawaii as well)
2. Due to the ban, existing indo fish supplies are limited and finite so if you want an indo fish then you got to pay for it, you may never see it for sale again. That is the new reality
3. Philippines and a few other places that are still open now have an increase in demand as fallout of the other bans in place (similar again to the coral situation)....as a result of the increased demand there fish prices also increase...again you don’t want to pay there price? No problem there is again, 100 stores/suppliers willing to pay it.

If you hobbyists dont want to pay the higher prices, importers and suppliers in Canada just won’t bring in shipments. I understand you may think prices are unfair or crazy, but in the global sale of corals, prices are based on supply and demand, huge over demand with not even close to the amount of supply needed. I can tell you that the people importing in corals are already cutting there margins substantially which leads to less profit which leads to an increase risk to the importer. Some have just simply decided to stop importing which again leads to a local supply and demand problem, which leads to higher prices. Canada is not even on the radar for suppliers....reason being very few importers in Canada have 30k to drop on one shipment to maybe turn around and make 5k...I ask yourself this....would your risk 30k to make 5 maybe 10k? Now that 5-10k maybe took 2-3 months to make...What other expenses are incurred during that 2-3 months of trying to make that 5-10k? Doa, maintenance costs, rent, insurance power etc. All of these are cost factors which take away from the bottom line...now how much profit did you make in that 2-3 month period? Now is that sustainable? Was that worth the risk? See where I am going?

The golden years are done, except it or move on...and I say this with the best intentions

Maybe that wasn’t so simple of a reason? Lol

Cheers,
Dave

Just to add to this. I've noticed over the last few months freight prices have also gone up and our Canadian dollar is starting to fall again and since we purchase everything in American it costs more to convert our money to American. I've tried to keep my fish prices the same as it has been for the last two years but its getting harder and harder to do that. I'm not a fan of trying to sell 100-300 dollar corals because I know in London that stuff just doesn't sell everyday so for now I have stayed away from the Australian corals and just tried to get softies from Vietnam since they are still able to ship those but we can't get LPS and other hard corals because it is illegal. Add in now as a retailer we have to have a Vet basically on retainer because we are no-longer able to sell or have on hand any bacterial medications. I have to have a prescription for anything now to treat our fish so that is going to put costs up on stuff even more.

Retail stores have mouths to feed as well. We have 12 employees that all need to get paid and now they are making more money per hour as well. It's not fun and I'm somewhat happy that I have a steady job for a company that isn't supported by just marine. I couldn't imagine trying to make it just on marine alone.

 

[TORX]

Just to add to this. I've noticed over the last few months freight prices have also gone up and our Canadian dollar is starting to fall again and since we purchase everything in American it costs more to convert our money to American. I've tried to keep my fish prices the same as it has been for the last two years but its getting harder and harder to do that. I'm not a fan of trying to sell 100-300 dollar corals because I know in London that stuff just doesn't sell everyday so for now I have stayed away from the Australian corals and just tried to get softies from Vietnam since they are still able to ship those but we can't get LPS and other hard corals because it is illegal. Add in now as a retailer we have to have a Vet basically on retainer because we are no-longer able to sell or have on hand any bacterial medications. I have to have a prescription for anything now to treat our fish so that is going to put costs up on stuff even more.

Retail stores have mouths to feed as well. We have 12 employees that all need to get paid and now they are making more money per hour as well. It's not fun and I'm somewhat happy that I have a steady job for a company that isn't supported by just marine. I couldn't imagine trying to make it just on marine alone.

You touched on some good points there. Wages alone on the 12 employees, assuming min wage, would have got a $2.75/hr raise. If they only worked 20 hours a week each, that is an increased expense of $660/week or approx $35,000 a year.

I think where people forget is mr basement sells a coral that he trimmed due to over growth for $20 and profits $20. A store sells that same piece for $40 and only profits $2 after expenses, shipping, cities, legal, rent, hydro, unsurance, employee wages, employee contributions to employee cop and ie etc etc.

As mentioned above, right now the market is saturated with people selling. How many stores in Ontario alone compared to when Rick started this site? He drove from Windsor to TO selling out of his car because there were next to no stores. Now the GTA alone has a dozen within an hour drive in just about any direction. The overseas sellers will just sell to the next store in line.

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[Salty Cracker]

I think where people forget is mr basement sells a coral that he trimmed due to over growth for $20 and profits $20.

I would look at the $20,000-$1,000,000 (I'm not good with math) or so I have spent over the past 20 years on this hobby, and my insane "thanks to liberal wind power" hydro bills, and say that my $20 coral nets me...ummm again not good with math...carry the one.... NEGATIVE 1 BILLION DOLLARS!