Do Phosphates Really Matter???

theyangman

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Joined
May 22, 2013
Location
London, Ontario
Discuss. Let's be civil and open minded here. This talk at Macna really has got me thinking....


It just begs a lot of questions right? the bit on testing accuracy and precision makes a lot of sense. And just testing in general. Is it a false sense of security?
 

NateR

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Oct 11, 2014
Location
Tavistock, Ontario
When I watched this I was completely in awe. I've been working to bring down phos the past while but maybe there's other ways around it?
 

Reef Hero

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May 27, 2012
Location
Lucan
Richard is a member of TFT actually....or atleast he used to be....
I think he goes by Thales online.... He had a huge thread blow up over this on RC

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Reef Hero

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Lucan
I remember that.
Was about 200 pages in just a couple days. Got split off into multiple threads.


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Yea it blew up lol. There was a thread here too on tft referencing that RC thread and it was getting some good input..... I'm pretty sure Thales posted in our tft thread but maybe it was just an imposter lol


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J_T

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Chemistry... I wish I could remember more...

Phos binds with other elements... One of which prevents the alk from helping your ph, and calcium uptake in corals... The coral needs (something) and because of the phos molecule attached, it can't use it to grow its skeleton as well as it should. Which also causes problems when you are testing calcium, PH, and alk. They are not "true" readings. You are getting the numbers you want, however, what you are reading, can't be used... thus are you really getting the results you want?

Now, some phos in a tank is needed. It feeds the little critters, and the bigger critters have a food source!
 

J_T

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Dammmm look at you and I thought you just played with plastic. Jk
Hmmmm, Let me redo that quote for you....... LOL!

I loved Chemistry in high school! Couldn't do trig to save my life, but I could look at a huge equation in Chem, and do most of the math in my head :)

I am going to have to look around. I know that Mast had a webinar last year, and the gentleman was going in depth on the topic. It was mostly regarding Alk, and our PH, but I know that the main focus was what we were "missing" while we tried to get the balance!
 

saltyair

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Oct 29, 2014
Location
Kingston, Ontario
great vid imo, but does give me more questions.

I think we will find that bacterias will have a bigger effect on the hobby and how we promote certain strains.

I wonder what is the driving factor to a successful mixed reef.

would like to hear some thoughts on rankings

stability - 1
lighting - 4
flow - 2
nutrients - 7
bacteria -3
skimming
livestock - 6
systems - 8
water volume -9
water source - 10
maturity - 5
 

Reef Hero

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Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Lucan
You just got to put the mitten on the kitten!
I'm anxious to get my triton test sent off but probably won't be until April at the earliest.... I think the ranking of what is important is kinda relevant but IMO pretty much all of what you listed above is going to play a pretty major role.... Like for instance I noticed you have water source as 10.... Is it a 10 only because you never had to worry about it and have had success not worrying about it? Because for others source water can become a nightmare quite quickly for a reef tank and would rank as probably a 2 or 3.... I really liked the part where Richard talked about testing and how if we get "good" results then we don't worry about it.... But then again what is actually "good" when it comes to nitrate and phosphate.....


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scubasteve

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May 4, 2014
Location
Cambridge, Ontario
i go by the old motto a lil bit of everything is good alot of something is bad lol our tests must be accurate enough as majority of us have great looking reefs ya its not exact but allows us to pinpoint what is getting out of control before its too late. personally my corals do bad if any reading is zero and i take it as my system is consuming more than is produced which imo is just as bad as having levels too high..... long as my corals are bright and colourful and growing i can only assume things are where they should be.

On a side note when i braught my sps home from erics my phos was 0.86 now its 0.09 on the hanna and everything looks the same actually one digi lost its colour pretty bad as my levels slowly lowered. But in the past when i had high phos issues i had alot slower growth but overall health and colour was good. Ime high phos levels only impede the growth rate.

I love how he used the analogy " if it aint broke dont fix it"
 
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saltyair

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Oct 29, 2014
Location
Kingston, Ontario
You just got to put the mitten on the kitten!
I'm anxious to get my triton test sent off but probably won't be until April at the earliest.... I think the ranking of what is important is kinda relevant but IMO pretty much all of what you listed above is going to play a pretty major role.... Like for instance I noticed you have water source as 10.... Is it a 10 only because you never had to worry about it and have had success not worrying about it? Because for others source water can become a nightmare quite quickly for a reef tank and would rank as probably a 2 or 3.... I really liked the part where Richard talked about testing and how if we get "good" results then we don't worry about it.... But then again what is actually "good" when it comes to nitrate and phosphate.....


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Oh I hear you on the water source - the reason I put 10 ( this is just a theory ranking)
Because there is an easy way to fix source water like ro units. Great point


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jroovers

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Aug 29, 2012
Location
London
You just got to put the mitten on the kitten!
I'm anxious to get my triton test sent off but probably won't be until April at the earliest.... I think the ranking of what is important is kinda relevant but IMO pretty much all of what you listed above is going to play a pretty major role.... Like for instance I noticed you have water source as 10.... Is it a 10 only because you never had to worry about it and have had success not worrying about it? Because for others source water can become a nightmare quite quickly for a reef tank and would rank as probably a 2 or 3.... I really liked the part where Richard talked about testing and how if we get "good" results then we don't worry about it.... But then again what is actually "good" when it comes to nitrate and phosphate....
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I like this post :). I don't necessarily agree with good test results or bad when I see them, maybe he is talking about people new to the hobby.. If they are different than expected, I retest and retest because intuition says something isn't adding up.

The only thing I think that is a take home message from that thread on RC is that you shouldn't chase numbers with your tests. And that tests are not that accurate so take them with a grain of salt :p That isn't anything a lot of experienced reefers didn't know already though. Thales I believe came onto this forum to gauge reaction to some of his posts over on RC, not to contribute, which is fine. Personally I have found that Thales has contributed some great info over on RC and stimulated some great discussion, but I think his skepticism is over the top and skeptical for the sake of being skeptical. I find his approach to argument and questioning of his line of thinking inconsistent and biased, but that is just my opinion.

The part of keeping that is over looked is dedicated observation and husbandry IMO. Every system is different. The best reefers I've known rely more on their gut and intuition than test kit results, but these results do guide decision making. Phosphates are a byproduct of introduced nutrients to the system. Too much, you have problems, too little, ditto. No different than other variables. Usually after a while you can observe things are out of alignment, and act accordingly. Just because your phosphate level is different than darryl's and your corals still look good should come as a comfort, not as a surprise. Successful reef keeping is a practice, a dedicated one, the more you practice the better you'll get. Applies to phosphates and everything else.
 

AdInfinitum

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Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Location
Thorndale, Ontario
I read back over the old thread linked above....lots of good discussion...I miss those days....

Me however!! Way to wordy...I doubt anyone made it to the end of any of my posts without falling asleep.... I must have thought I was back in Academia...

Anyhow...I probably have some of the worst parameters on the forum And I'll be the first to admit that not everything I put in my tank survives. However most things survive and many thrive and that was the case when nitrates were 100+ but not so much when phosphates were uncontrolled and unmeasured.

One of the keys for me has been the balance. Phosphate is so easy to remove relative to nitrate that I was able to change the balance significantly and the high nitrate/very low phosphate period was the worst time I have had with my reef. I wiped out or set back a lot of things before I got things back into a better balance.
 

Marz

Active Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Orangeville, Ontario
This continues to be a good discussion for a newbie like me and the post in RC was interesting. I find that the members here and other places provide interesting opinions. My take is that balance and experience provides for successful reeding as well as talking and seeing how other forum members are successful. It also appears that everyone at some point runs into issues and that their solutions can sometimes vary.
 
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