Do Phosphates Really Matter???

[Reef Hero]

Personally I'm glad that Thales (Richard Ross) is having huge success with high po4. Assuming his testing is accurate and precise (mitten on the kitten), and I'm sure it is because all his and others testing for him have come up with high po4 results...... It leads me to believe what I have always felt is a missing link or something between po4 and possibly even no3 and rest of the reef chemistry. Would possibly explain why some reefers cannot get anything to grow at the beginning even though their Params are very low po4 and very low no3, while others starting up seem to have success not worrying about it and therefore running higher values.....
I've always enjoyed debates on this chemistry and I may come off as sounding quite rude when someone posts things just like Richard did that defy our understanding of the reef chemistry..... I apologize, but it is usually only when it is posted without any proof behind the claims and usually 99% of the time end up to be false claims or at the very least, claims that hold very little evidence behind them. So basically my first instinct of course is to rebuttal against you, at this point you would need to prove your outrageous claims.....I think Richard has proven that his po4 is outrageously high compared to the standard and yet has an amazing reef that is growing quite well..... Now that we have seen it and it is proven, the question becomes how and why is this possible or happening....?


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[jroovers]

I think that a lot of it is species specific (some are better than others at tolerating nutrient levels) and related to lighting periods. It has been speculated for quite some time that SPS do better under different lighting schedules depending on the nutrient levels, and this too could be a factor. We are finding out more and more that bacteria play a role in how corals potentially collect nutrition from the water column in addition to producing energy themselves from their symbiotic relationship with zooanthelae. Also, if you want to have success with your tank over time, keep adding pieces of coral to the system, and as some die out and don't tolerate your parameters, move the next piece in, and repeat, until you have a tank full of corals that do like your parameters. Doesn't explain the why part, but can explain the how IMO. That, and every system is unique. At the end of the day, the phosphate levels he is reported are very high and definitely something I would consider an anomaly.

 

[AdInfinitum]

Personally I'm glad that Thales (Richard Ross) is having huge success with high po4. Assuming his testing is accurate and precise (mitten on the kitten), and I'm sure it is because all his and others testing for him have come up with high po4 results...... It leads me to believe what I have always felt is a missing link or something between po4 and possibly even no3 and rest of the reef chemistry. Would possibly explain why some reefers cannot get anything to grow at the beginning even though their Params are very low po4 and very low no3, while others starting up seem to have success not worrying about it and therefore running higher values.....
I've always enjoyed debates on this chemistry and I may come off as sounding quite rude when someone posts things just like Richard did that defy our understanding of the reef chemistry..... I apologize, but it is usually only when it is posted without any proof behind the claims and usually 99% of the time end up to be false claims or at the very least, claims that hold very little evidence behind them. So basically my first instinct of course is to rebuttal against you, at this point you would need to prove your outrageous claims.....I think Richard has proven that his po4 is outrageously high compared to the standard and yet has an amazing reef that is growing quite well..... Now that we have seen it and it is proven, the question becomes how and why is this possible or happening....?


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Re: the false or anecdotal claims... A couple of things. The younger (...than me...lol) male demographic that seem attracted to reef keeping tend to have a large ego investment in their hobbies and like all people we tend towards complimentary selective memory.....

Reefers are like bingo players ask any of them and they are all up or at least breaking even overall....

 

[Kman]

I don't rely on testing of my water quality all the time, unless i see a problem i rarely test for nutrients. I visually check my tank daily and over the years I have learned how to spot the early warning signs that the corals and overall tank life gives me. If you look at your tank daily you will be in tune with the cycle of the tank and you will know if something is wrong. You will feel it in your gut.

If my whole tank is not fully out like it should be then I know more then likely something is wrong. If i think something is up i check the basics first like salinity, PH, KH. If those are in check I then check for nitrates/phosphates etc. Is one or two corals not out? Then it is more likely not a major water quality issue unless it lasts for over a few days. I find if you look at your sensitive corals they will show you the early warning signs first that something is coming. Like not coming out or loosing color. Same with you sensitive invertebrates like pods and snails. Do you see a sudden drop in population density or a big boom in it?

With that being said I keep up on my tank maintenance regularly. Don't get lazy! A lazy reefer is a dirty tank in the making. I do my weekly water changes, change my filter socks, check my reactors, clean skimmer, check my RO prefilters etc. So i constantly limit the input of nutrients going into my tank. I try and keep my hands out of the tank unless i have to fix an issue or tank maintenance. If you keep putting your hands in the tank that alone causes water quality issues. The oils from you skin messes with the skimmer output. Not to mention all the pollution you get from going outdoors sticks to your skin and comes out of your pours, the soaps and detergents you use. Some people tinker with their tanks thinking they have a problem when they don't and in turn cause one.

If I do have a water quality issue I drill into what could be causing it. I check source water, food input, any filters or reactors that need to be changed, what has changed in my tank, what have I lately done differently. Do i keep my RO water top up container in a different spot? Is that spot right beside the cat litter and I leave the lid off? Is my crushed coral to deep or compacting? Am i over feeding? Normally if you look and think things through you can find the answer and cause.

I find the people that make the testing kits want us to use them all the time so we buy more of the products and they can make more money off of us. So they start up water quality arguments that get people banned.

If you are new to the hobby till you have been in it for a few years and gained experience you should be doing your testing. Just because someone that has been in the hobby for a few years doesn't shouldn't mean you don't.

 

[100gallon]

you can see where my numbers sit in my signature, and I think I am one of the ones where I was new and had good luck. I read this entire forum and believe that the video may have some validity. I notice my PE is waaaay less when I do a reactor change of my Hi cap gfo and gac. I am wondering if I take my reactors off line for 6 mos what would happen. I have stocked my tank from wonderful people here, and don't want to kill anything, but what in life is worth having if you can't take a risk to get it? LOL.

 

[Kman]

luck does factor in on success i would think. Plus with a forum like this if you were to lose your corals it does suck big time. But you do have access to new stuff. I myself like to hesitate with loss of life of corals/monetary hit as well.

It would also depend on where the coral was originally harvested from. If it was from a higher nutrent level environment like a turbid lagoon or reef back (that would have access to at least occasionally to higher nutrients) it would have better adapted Zooxanthellae for higher levels of dissolved organics and poorer water conditions. Versus algae that is adapted to lower levels and better water quality. If a coral larval that normally does well in say a upper reef flat or reef slope were to settle in one of the before mentioned zones. It would have access to better adapted to higher nutrient level Zooxanthellae. In order to survive it would discharge its own algae and uptake the new one. If someone were to collect from this zone and bring it into the aquarium trade it would do well with higher nutrients. Flip side this could also happen in a tank after it is newly introduced. From stress it could bleach a little and when it recovers all it has access to was the higher nutrient poorer water quality Zooxanthellae.

 

[barebottomcouple]

I don't rely on testing of my water quality all the time, unless i see a problem i rarely test for nutrients. I visually check my tank daily and over the years I have learned how to spot the early warning signs that the corals and overall tank life gives me. If you look at your tank daily you will be in tune with the cycle of the tank and you will know if something is wrong. You will feel it in your gut.

If my whole tank is not fully out like it should be then I know more then likely something is wrong. If i think something is up i check the basics first like salinity, PH, KH. If those are in check I then check for nitrates/phosphates etc. Is one or two corals not out? Then it is more likely not a major water quality issue unless it lasts for over a few days. I find if you look at your sensitive corals they will show you the early warning signs first that something is coming. Like not coming out or loosing color. Same with you sensitive invertebrates like pods and snails. Do you see a sudden drop in population density or a big boom in it?

With that being said I keep up on my tank maintenance regularly. Don't get lazy! A lazy reefer is a dirty tank in the making. I do my weekly water changes, change my filter socks, check my reactors, clean skimmer, check my RO prefilters etc. So i constantly limit the input of nutrients going into my tank. I try and keep my hands out of the tank unless i have to fix an issue or tank maintenance. If you keep putting your hands in the tank that alone causes water quality issues. The oils from you skin messes with the skimmer output. Not to mention all the pollution you get from going outdoors sticks to your skin and comes out of your pours, the soaps and detergents you use. Some people tinker with their tanks thinking they have a problem when they don't and in turn cause one.

If I do have a water quality issue I drill into what could be causing it. I check source water, food input, any filters or reactors that need to be changed, what has changed in my tank, what have I lately done differently. Do i keep my RO water top up container in a different spot? Is that spot right beside the cat litter and I leave the lid off? Is my crushed coral to deep or compacting? Am i over feeding? Normally if you look and think things through you can find the answer and cause.

I find the people that make the testing kits want us to use them all the time so we buy more of the products and they can make more money off of us. So they start up water quality arguments that get people banned.

If you are new to the hobby till you have been in it for a few years and gained experience you should be doing your testing. Just because someone that has been in the hobby for a few years doesn't shouldn't mean you don't.

I think generally its a big numbers chase.... I have not tested anything other than salinity in years actually my newest test kit is 2 years expired..... again regular maintenance (if its too much then switch to fresh water)... and a good eye on how your tank inhabitants act or react....I have clams, gorgonians, sps, huge brain colony and everything grows awesome and quick....but I cant grow ricordea shrooms....bought one a week ago and its small and shriveled... goes to show different balance of nutrients, light and other factors limit what grows and what doesn't in each individual tank

 

[saltyair]

I can't keep a ricordea if my life depended on it
For the new people in the hobby I think testing is a good thing and you will learn. As we and the tank mature we learn what to look for. I really only test alk on a regular basis because I'm growing a lot of frags. I do test po4 just due to using aio pellets to see if they are working as advertised


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[reeferkeeper420]

I think if you had a full blown sps system itd be hard to keep up with element usage like your alk and cal, with just regular maintenance. You need to test to make sure your your on track with proper levels. Corals have symbiotic levels, where the coral has the best absorbtion rate of elements like alk and cal.
And as coral mature they start to use up more. So how are you going to know without testing?

 

[Kman]

I myself have close to 60 sps in my system and I have no growth issue without testing all the time. I also have a few really big LPS that continually grow. I do test from time to time to make sure things don't get out of balance. But not very often.

 

[EricTMah]

I'm down to testing once every 4-8 weeks. Mainly for piece of mind.

 

[J_T]

I bet we could make a chart... I know what it would look like too! A big X

compare - testing against years in the hobby.

I have no doubt that everyone tested regularly when they first started, as we have been in the hobby for some time, the testing is less and less.

When I had my SPS system years ago, I had two digi colonies. They were my litmus test. When they didn't extend polyps, something was not "right" Fast test... and I would find that calcium was a bit low, or Alk was off, something. But I never had to "test" regularly. Just looking at the tank was enough.

 

[reeferkeeper420]

Too each their own right. Thats what makes this hobby fun.im definately not sayin its a mandatory thing. But the amount of time it takes me to do some tests for peace of mind, its no biggie for me. Personally i dont want to wait until i see something wrong with a colony lol.

 

[Kman]

I bet we could make a chart... I know what it would look like too! A big X

compare - testing against years in the hobby.

I have no doubt that everyone tested regularly when they first started, as we have been in the hobby for some time, the testing is less and less.

When I had my SPS system years ago, I had two digi colonies. They were my litmus test. When they didn't extend polyps, something was not "right" Fast test... and I would find that calcium was a bit low, or Alk was off, something. But I never had to "test" regularly. Just looking at the tank was enough.[/QUOTE

Oh I tested when I first got into the hobby or when I see an issue. It definitely has its place and is a important tool. This tank I am in now I did test for the
first 6 months or so to get a base line. Make sure everything was going well and figure out growth rates. But after that not so much.

 

[Kman]

T

Too each their own right. Thats what makes this hobby fun.im definately not sayin its a mandatory thing. But the amount of time it takes me to do some tests for peace of mind, its no biggie for me. Personally i dont want to wait until i see something wrong with a colony lol.

That is the best part about this hobby. So many ways of doing things.