Old Tank Syndrome, Anemones and Carbon dosing

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AdInfinitum

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Didn't want to Hijack Blob's thread...

If your ever in woodstock and have some heads of kryptonite candy cane let me know.

Also have some nems I need to talk to you about.......I have one happy one (red and green) and 4 unhappy flame tips I might be looking to unload.  They dont seem to like their home......

Darryl, Blob...do you dose a carbon source at all?  I have 6 unhappy flame tips as well right now that had been doing great despite my ongoing battle with "Old Tank Syndrome" until my ever escalating vodka/vinegar dosing finally started to work... Now they look like  :poop: 90% of the time even as my persistent nitrates are dropping and growth in most of my LPS/SPS is taking off (except for a lobo brain that looks worse than the nems). 

In Randy Holmes-Farley's own vinegar dosing thread he mentioned that he lost a BTA and others have mentioned having to move nems out of their tanks while dosing at higher levels.

Anyone else go down the anemones+carbon road?
 

Blob-79

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Re: Anemones and Carbon dosing

Darryl and I both run bio pellets as a carbon source. Ive never dosed vodka or vinegar
 

AdInfinitum

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Re: Anemones and Carbon dosing

Interesting,

As I understand it the pellets work effectively like an agar media providing both nutrient and substrate within the reactor rather than dissolving and providing nutrients for a free floating culture, either of which could be causing the issue for my Nems.

Do you see a lot of pods living in your reactors feeding on the bacteria?  When the culture finally bloomed in my tank (it was not gradual like Teebone's experience) the pods bloomed as well with any bacteria strings covered in them.
 

AdInfinitum

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I had been meaning to do a thread on my attempt to deal with "OTS" through carbon dosing so I might as well continue here...

History:

Where my 180gal glass box that I set up a little while ago is fairly new, most of the rock and substrate in it have been in my tank(s) for well over 15 years.  Most of that time the tanks were "old school" tank, canister filter, live rock and Macros in the display PERIOD  No sump, no skimmer, no reactors. Way back when I was last really involved with the hobby "skimmers good or bad" was a topic of much argument...and Bill was paying for his ?gunmetal grey? Porsche selling the latest, greatest DAS systems. Shockingly  ;) success with inverts was very limited...

Anyway...As Darryl has mentioned in other threads, old pieces of live rock eventually become nitrate sinks...no hurricanes or tsunamis in our tanks to really shake them up and clean them out periodically...

As such, my new tank, that had sat running for several months with no live stock other than things that were growing on the rocks and virtually no feeding still had nitrates @ 90-100ppm when I was ready to start stocking it.

Changed almost all of the water and carried on with getting things going tank was OK but not meeting my expectations Nitrates were hanging around 10ppm growth was sluggish at best some frags just died fairly quickly.  Tried some phosphate remover which helped a lot, and dosing vodka to eliminate that last bit of nitrate.

Needed a new test kit so I looked through my box of stuff and found an ancient one but when I went to empty the bottles and toss them I realized that part two (API) was a much newer one that much have gotten switched when the cat tipped over the shelf in the basement...(yes unusually sloppy on my part)

Went out...got a new Salifert kit and found 10ppm was really 100ppm...(strangely only a bit of Cyano no other algae) No problem, very little livestock and therefore little feeding, change 40 gal twice a week for a bit, problem solved....instead no improvement.

Tried the "massive water change"...shutdown the pumps, lower the rock a bit, removed and replaced over 100gal and any detritus i could find in a single water change cut the 'trates to just below 50ppm..by the end of the week they were back at 100ppm with virtually nothing going into the tank and red dragon macro growing like mad although chaeto shrinking.

My Euroreef skimmer was fine for the stocking level but way too small for the system volume and not up to my plan to try pushing carbon dosing to whatever level it would take to try to drain the nitrate bank...Got Bill's demo in250 (way underrated IMO looking at air volume and reactor sizing) and started to push...

When I inquired in Tee's thread about his dosing I missed that he was talking vinegar not vodka so at that point, with the multiplier plus the vinegar I add to my Kalk top off water I was already over 300ml/day vinegar or equivalent with no visible effect.  In fact there was no evidence that I was dosing at all until I reached over 650ml/day (with Kalk buffering the ph).

The second day at that level, I noticed a few white strands growing on the return nozzles when I left for work, when I came home that night I saw this...

P1040140.jpg


The skimmer pulled 4 liters of medium brown viscous goop that smelled like a not so subtle blend of sewage and vomit over the next 24hrs and the tank was clear.  The only immediate casualty was the birdsnest...

P1040122.jpg
 

surprisingly it seems to be recovering now.

Cut the dosing in half as recommended but as nitrates had not budged from 100ppm i started to increase the dose and almost immediately got a bloom although much less extreme. Cut back again to 250ml/day and held it there to see if the now established culture would exhaust the nitrate supply in the rocks. After three weeks with the skimmer pulling 2 liters of dark horrid muck every day the nitrates dropped suddenly to 50ppm for a few days bounced back to 90ish and then began a steady decline to current 40ppm.

During that time period the livestock have had widely varied reactions...

Zoas bright extended and multiplying...

P1040126.jpg


P1040125.jpg


Green Palys cycle umbrella then open and multiplying...

P1040134.jpg


Brain receding...now melting...

P1030944.jpg


Favias full and bright see the rim of bacteria strings...

P1040127.jpg


Duncan and War coral? happy...

P1040132.jpg


Flame BTA split and almost black...

P1040131.jpg


Clam...Happy as a...

P1040047.jpg


I will update pics as this continues...This experience was not anything that the info on the net prepared me for....

Incidentally when the nitrates dropped below 50ppm the chaeto took off growing and the DT has virtually every kind of green algae (mostly pest) sprouting out of nowhere but not unmanageable at this point I just have to clean the glass finally.(phosphates still undetectable)
 

AdInfinitum

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Neopimp link said:
Bacteria bloom:)

Absolutely...just a surprise given how long and gradually I built up the levels that it would happen so suddenly.  The tank has always seemed too "sterile" to me but since the system was so different than what I was used too (low feeding, sump, skimmer, high intensity lighting, high flow) I put it down to that.

Since the bloom it's all full of life (good and not so good) developing like I have been used to over the years... Almost like there was some contamination preventing normal biodiversity from thriving (although I find the theories about OTS and Micro-fauna Mono-cultures hard to accept)
 

AdInfinitum

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Just an update....

I have continued to back down my dosing, now at 250ml/day, added only to the sump.  Nitrates still dropping slowly but the change was possibly too rapid before not allowing anything time to adapt to the changing conditions.  The huge doses seemed to be needed to get the process going but now much smaller doses are just as effective.

The red brain is done as are 4 of 6 flame BTA's, and half of my orange/blue Rhodactis on the same rock look terrible and half look great...the reduced dosage and improved water quality have my chalices growing again now faster than before and my Blasto's have suddenly sprouted a row of small new heads.

P1040177.jpg


There's no question that this has worked to address the persistent nitrate problem and from that perspective I would like to try it on the 200gal but there have obviously been costs and I am very hesitant to risk my huge LTA that I have had for so many years...
 

teebone110

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maybe consider biopellets? It's my understanding that biopellets produce bacteria as needed by your systems demand.

Vinegar/vodka dosing provides a carbon source that is not dependent on the bacteria available in your system. That is the reason why vinegar/vodka dosing is considerably more dangerous. It offers a greater margin of error.

I have significantly backed down on my vinegar dosing and things are looking alot better, and will very very slowly increase the dose to prevent an overdose.

I'm giving it another try, if I can't dial things in this time, I already have a plan to swtich over to pellets.
 

Blob-79

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teebone110 link said:
It's my understanding that biopellets produce bacteria as needed by your systems demand.

Vinegar/vodka dosing provides a carbon source that is not dependent on the bacteria available in your system. That is the reason why vinegar/vodka dosing is considerably more dangerous. It offers a greater margin of error.

YEAA!
 

Salty Cracker

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teebone110 link said:
Hey Salty, How are things at the Somerset this weekend ;)

Good lord, I HAVE to stop drinking on those super nice holiday days...oh my look at the temperature already today.  I'll just lock the computer in a closet today just to be on the safe side.  I mean seriously, WTF was I thinking?? ;D
 

AdInfinitum

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I think that bio-pellets will be the way that I go when I reach the maintenance stage as I am now convinced about the effectiveness of the whole carbon source culture process.

However as far as leaching the build-up out of rocks and substrate, I wonder if a "reactor sized" culture would ever get the job done.  One change that I made toward the end that likely triggered both the bloom and the positive results is starting to add a portion of the dose directly into the display return flow rather than all into the main sump section once the dosage became so huge.

Once the 180gal is stable, I will go at the 200gal with dosing into the display right from the start and seeding the bacteria with water from the 180gal so no buildup is required to get the culture underway.

Incidentally, with nitrates @100ppm  dragon tongue grew like mad, chaeto was gradually shrinking.  Now, nitrates @ 30ish ppm dragon tongue growth slower but good, chaeto growing steadily. I had tried chaeto before on several occasions with all kinds of flow and lighting and could never get it to grow.  Possible that chaeto doesn't adapt to higher nitrate levels? or perhaps other factors...
 

pulpfiction1

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It definitely, absolutely needs to tumble and move.  When it just sits, it deteriorates.


your probably right,i have never had it in an environment where it tumbles
 

Salty Cracker

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pulpfiction1 link said:
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It definitely, absolutely needs to tumble and move.  When it just sits, it deteriorates.


your probably right,i have never had it in an environment where it tumbles

Well, tumble is best, but moved around a fair bit so that the whole mass gets direct lighting, and good water movement.  I've had it growing like crazy when spun around once a day, and at least 12 hours of light...and it rotted away to nothing when I just didn't bother. 
 

Salty Cracker

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AdInfinitum link said:
So you were just turning it by hand?  That would be easier than rearranging the flow to get it to tumble on its own....

I had it tumbling on its own, but two things always seemed to happen: It would get stuck into the skimmer pump, or it would grow too big so that it wouldn't tumble.  It would definitely be better if it tumbled on its own for sure.
 
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