Phosphates, nutrients and Test kit Discussion.

[Darryl_V]

The accuracy of the hanna meter is like .03 or .04 +/- so its not very good.  Even a 0.0ppm could still me potentially .04ppm.  We had an interesting debate on PO4 and NO3 on reefcentral sps forum.  The OP is claiming he has 1.3ppm PO4 and 100ppm NO3 and colourful acropora. Hard to believe and dont know what to say to that.

I definitely dont think your 5ppm nitrate is bad at all.  personally in an SPS tank I've always thought under 10ppm was fine.

You should try dropbox Derek.  I dont know if there is a bandwidth limit but I never have had the pictures on the net stop working.  Its really a online data storage app.  I can move pictures from my phone (or any other device I log into with dropbox) to dropbox and they show up as a folder on my computer.  It also comes with a public folder that you can use to host pictures for the web.  You simply put pictures into that folder and right click and hit "copy public link".  Its a cool free tool.

 

[spyd]

Those are some crazy high values. Is the OP blasting the corals with some insanely high par?? I know Jay at RR had some high PO4 levels and nitrates in his tanks but he had those MH blasting an inch off the water. In a typical reef setup though, I would think it would be nearly impossible to keep SPS thriving. I noticed browning and issues at .08ppm in my tank and that is when the alarm bells rang for me.

 

[spyd]

On a side note, my WP60 has come! Going to pick it up at the post office tomorrow and let it soak overnight. I cant wait to see what kind of wave I can produce with this thing!

 

[Duke]

Dropbox is great.. Just copy the pictures to your Dropbox folder on your computer and their ready to share.

 

[teebone110]

Derek, are you using just the regular po4 checker or the ulr?
I'm thinking about buying the regular one....but depends on your reply lol

Me too, I have been holding off, as I am unsure which tester to get.

I think that if you start to see algae or needing to clean your glass more often, phosphate is too high..Lol Not exactly precise.

On a side note, my WP60 has come! Going to pick it up at the post office tomorrow and let it soak overnight. I cant wait to see what kind of wave I can produce with this thing!

Who needs a wave box, when you can get some good wave action with this beast. Will definitely take less real-estate in your tank
Keep us posted with your results.

 

[Reef Hero]

The accuracy of the hanna meter is like .03 or .04 +/- so its not very good.  Even a 0.0ppm could still me potentially .04ppm.  We had an interesting debate on PO4 and NO3 on reefcentral sps forum.  The OP is claiming he has 1.3ppm PO4 and 100ppm NO3 and colourful acropora. Hard to believe and dont know what to say to that.

I definitely dont think your 5ppm nitrate is bad at all.  personally in an SPS tank I've always thought under 10ppm was fine.

You should try dropbox Derek.  I dont know if there is a bandwidth limit but I never have had the pictures on the net stop working.  Its really a online data storage app.  I can move pictures from my phone (or any other device I log into with dropbox) to dropbox and they show up as a folder on my computer.  It also comes with a public folder that you can use to host pictures for the web.  You simply put pictures into that folder and right click and hit \"copy public link\".  Its a cool free tool.

Dang, RC still won't lift my ban....
Can you post the link here for the RC thread?
I have high po4 right now too and can tell by looking at my sand bed and glass..... It's reading consistent at around .11ppm
I am seeing great colour/growth on all corals..... Better than when my po4 was lower... But the cyano and algae are starting to show up.... I'd be very interested in checking out that RC thread.... How does the op control algae and cyano?

 

[BIGSHOW]

Those are some crazy high values. Is the OP blasting the corals with some insanely high par?? I know Jay at RR had some high PO4 levels and nitrates in his tanks but he had those MH blasting an inch off the water. In a typical reef setup though, I would think it would be nearly impossible to keep SPS thriving. I noticed browning and issues at .08ppm in my tank and that is when the alarm bells rang for me.

Very true.  I tested Jay's system several times and the results were incredible (I seriously tested 3 times in a row as I couldn't believe it).  N03 100ppm+, P04 wouldn't even register on the regular checker.  I even brought in some of my own water and tested both of at the same time, repeatedly, and got the same results every time (+/- 5%).  He has said recently that his levels are back in check. 

I agree that this isn't the norm and for people to generally think you can run a successful SPS tank with crazy high nutrient levels is not something I would recommend.  Can you have colourful SPS with high nutrients? From what I have seen, it is possible, however, I do think there is something else that needs to "counter" the high levels, like crazy PAR or some other unknown we haven't really thought of.  Is it also possible that some Acros are just more tolerant of nutrient rich systems? Maybe the people with the high nutrient levels lost 50 corals for every 1 coral that survived and adapted to the high nutrient levels?

It is a very interesting debate.  I have been following it for the most part, but that Allmost character really ruins threads with his attitude (how he isn't banned is beyond me, Ben, you did much less to get banned then that crazy character!).  Very happy I don't see him on this forum . 

 

[spyd]

Dang, RC still won't lift my ban....
Can you post the link here for the RC thread?

All right Ben.... What did you do????? Mod, I need a Mod here!!!! Ban this bastard!

 

[Reef Hero]

Can someone post a link to the RC thread?

I got banned over a dispute between me and the owner of Aqua Digital.... I'll explain further sometime lol... Actually because of what I said on RC, I was banned from all GHL forums... I got the ban lifted on the German based GHL forum and the North American one is non existent now anyways I believe.... Oh well, lesson learned.... You don't mess with paying sponsors lol

 

[teebone110]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953

 

[Poseidon]

i do find that the numbers chasing concept in that thread is interesting, i mean, how often do we change something just because a number is off rather than their being a problem in the tank.

As for corals browning when po4 levels rise etc, i think its all about 'what the coral is used to',
take ad infintums tank, he has crazy high No3 levels and im assuming po4,
well i got a blue stag off him at ricks bbq and placed it in my frag tank, my frag tank did have the best numbers out there either but it still coloured up.
I moved it to my display this week, and in ONE week, it turned completely bright blue and i can see the growth on it, probably the happiest piece in my tank atm just because its been used to such 'less than ideal water quality' in the past.

just my 0.02

 

[Duke]

[quote author=spyd link=topic=2295.msg78672#msg78672 date=1390962092]
Those are some crazy high values. Is the OP blasting the corals with some insanely high par?? I know Jay at RR had some high PO4 levels and nitrates in his tanks but he had those MH blasting an inch off the water. In a typical reef setup though, I would think it would be nearly impossible to keep SPS thriving. I noticed browning and issues at .08ppm in my tank and that is when the alarm bells rang for me.

Very true.  I tested Jay's system several times and the results were incredible (I seriously tested 3 times in a row as I couldn't believe it).  N03 100ppm+, P04 wouldn't even register on the regular checker.  I even brought in some of my own water and tested both of at the same time, repeatedly, and got the same results every time (+/- 5%).  He has said recently that his levels are back in check. 

I agree that this isn't the norm and for people to generally think you can run a successful SPS tank with crazy high nutrient levels is not something I would recommend.  Can you have colourful SPS with high nutrients? From what I have seen, it is possible, however, I do think there is something else that needs to "counter" the high levels, like crazy PAR or some other unknown we haven't really thought of.  Is it also possible that some Acros are just more tolerant of nutrient rich systems? Maybe the people with the high nutrient levels lost 50 corals for every 1 coral that survived and adapted to the high nutrient levels?

It is a very interesting debate.  I have been following it for the most part, but that Allmost character really ruins threads with his attitude (how he isn't banned is beyond me, Ben, you did much less to get banned then that crazy character!).  Very happy I don't see him on this forum . 

[/quote]

interesting, see i thought Allmost was making that thread.. if anyone in that thread has an attitude its the OP, thales has played with words the whole thread and while his "im not saying one thing OR the other" its all up to "you" to decide what to do is a bunch of BS.. he has dodged almost every important question asked of him with some philosophical answer., he over and over again hints at his thoughts on certain things and anything but those thoughts are nonsense in his opinion. Its a pointless thread that is going to give the wrong ideas to many new people, you can see it already, many threads from people asking for advice have been replied with "you need to raise your phosphates".

i do find that the numbers chasing concept in that thread is interesting, i mean, how often do we change something just because a number is off rather than their being a problem in the tank.

i would hope its not to often... the purpose of testing is to catch things before they become a problem.. why not try a test on your own tank.. dont test calcium levels or alk levels.. just "wing it" for 6 months and lets see how that goes for u... while being anal over numbers is stupid.. testing and keeping your levels in check is part of proper husbandry(something i tend to slack on myself)

As for corals browning when po4 levels rise etc, i think its all about 'what the coral is used to',
take ad infintums tank, he has crazy high No3 levels and im assuming po4,
well i got a blue stag off him at ricks bbq and placed it in my frag tank, my frag tank did have the best numbers out there either but it still coloured up.
I moved it to my display this week, and in ONE week, it turned completely bright blue and i can see the growth on it, probably the happiest piece in my tank atm just because its been used to such 'less than ideal water quality' in the past.

just my 0.02

i think you nailed it bang on here.. the coral was "used to" or "making due" to the less than good water quality and when given the chance in your tank with "good" water it is doing much better..

while thales is a biologist, who i believe takes care of a 250,000 Gallon public aquarium i have no issues disagreeing with his "thread".


Here is a great read thats well worth it.. take special note on the Calcification Inhibition by Phosphate chapter.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#5



sorry for thread jacking here.. Derek, your tank is ridiculously nice, looking at your growth rates makes me wonder what im doing wrong 

 

[BIGSHOW]

I agree with you 100% nick.  I just can't stand Allmost.  The guy claims one day he is an engineer the next day he is a Scientist.  I guess if you read enough threads where he is involved you just sort of ignore most of the points he makes.  Sometimes he is on point, but 90% of the time he just drives me nuts.  Don't think I am backing the OP, I can't stand either of them!

 

[jroovers]

Duke, I agree with pretty much everything you said regarding nutrients and that thread over on RC, which in my opinion isn't very well balanced.  While the OP has had results that differ from the norm, and says he is supportive of studies etc. to further look into the link between nutrients and coral growth, he muddles his opinion and theories with explanations and words that are difficult to interpret.  He keeps pointing out that anecdotal evidence is likely the best we are going to get to understand these relationships, and then to varying degrees uses antecdoal evidence (or selectively the lack thereof) to support his position, whichever he feels is more fitting.

Based on what I can tell, the OP has a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy, and works at a public aquarium in the "husbandry" department, and calls himself (and is labelled on the public aquarium's website) as a "Biologist".  I can't tell if he even has a minor in biology.  I have a Bachelor of Sciences degree in Kinesiology, and took two or three ecology classes in university, plus a number of plant and human physiology classes, and have a home marine reef aquarium that I use to practice husbandry, so maybe I qualify as a biologist too (locally I would never do that, as I would suspect you would need at least a minor, if not a major, in a Biology program from a faculty of Science, if not a master's or Phd, and tenureship to a university).  He does apparently have experience working on a coral farm in the indo-pacific somewhere, as well as extensive experience juggling.  So maybe that makes him more qualified.  That said, his "publications" don't appear to be related to what I would call scientific study, they more appear related to the husbandry practices used to care for marine animals, mainly cuttlefish.  He does call himself the "skeptical reefkeeper", and he seems to identify himself as out to buck the trend (so maybe there is an ulterior motive there). 

In that sense, the OP wants to use anecdotal evidence to support his position, but wants to ignore the anecdotal evidence, correlation, etc. that demonstrates he is in the vast minority when it comes to phosphate levels and thriving SPS.  Key to any scientific study is "reliability" - i.e. how repeatable are results over time.  So if you set up 100 aquariums, how often are your results repeated - i.e. how many aquariums would you have with SPS that can tolerate those kinds of levels of phosphates?  The answer based on most people's experience is that 99/100 you need low levels of nutrient.  Time to time, you are going to have that outlier.  Anyhow, he doesn't seem overly receptive to acknowledging that concept. 

Sorry to contribute to your thread derailment Dererk, you LPS collection is starting to rival your SPS!  I think it is related though, a lower level of phosphates has been beneficial to your tank. 

 

[Darryl_V]

Seems like we could have our own really good discussion/thread on the subject here. 

Big show I agree with you. I don't mind almost as a person but I find he is all over the place in his ideas and unbelievably hard to follow.  Very unscientific IMO.

As far as Thales I think Jordan summed him up pretty good. He seems like someone who is out to buck the trend and possibly has an ulterior motive. I do find his reported results extremely interesting though.

 

[jroovers]

I do find his reported results extremely interesting though.

They truly are, I think he is detracting from that though given his rigidity.  I know Darryl you have indicated that strength of lighting could be one of the reasons why a coral could adjust to higher nutrients (or is potentially related), and might be related to zooxanthallae and its interaction with light/nutrients. We all know that certain SPS seem to be more tolerant of higher nutrient levels, so maybe it is a product of him filling his tank with corals that are tolerant to that, while throwing out the dead frags after they don't make it.  At the end of the day he has been left with a tank full of tolerant subspecies of SPS.

 

[spyd]

Derail away people! I am all ways open to a quality discussion. Besides, my photos don't work anyways so this thread is pretty much useless at the moment. 

 

[Reef Hero]

Perhaps a mod could open a new thread with a lot of discussion about the RC thread and the nitrate and phosphate levels from this thread transferred over....?


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[Reef Hero]

[quote author=spyd link=topic=2295.msg78672#msg78672 date=1390962092]
Those are some crazy high values. Is the OP blasting the corals with some insanely high par?? I know Jay at RR had some high PO4 levels and nitrates in his tanks but he had those MH blasting an inch off the water. In a typical reef setup though, I would think it would be nearly impossible to keep SPS thriving. I noticed browning and issues at .08ppm in my tank and that is when the alarm bells rang for me.

Very true.  I tested Jay's system several times and the results were incredible (I seriously tested 3 times in a row as I couldn't believe it).  N03 100ppm+, P04 wouldn't even register on the regular checker.  I even brought in some of my own water and tested both of at the same time, repeatedly, and got the same results every time (+/- 5%).  He has said recently that his levels are back in check. 

I agree that this isn't the norm and for people to generally think you can run a successful SPS tank with crazy high nutrient levels is not something I would recommend.  Can you have colourful SPS with high nutrients? From what I have seen, it is possible, however, I do think there is something else that needs to "counter" the high levels, like crazy PAR or some other unknown we haven't really thought of.  Is it also possible that some Acros are just more tolerant of nutrient rich systems? Maybe the people with the high nutrient levels lost 50 corals for every 1 coral that survived and adapted to the high nutrient levels?

It is a very interesting debate.  I have been following it for the most part, but that Allmost character really ruins threads with his attitude (how he isn't banned is beyond me, Ben, you did much less to get banned then that crazy character!).  Very happy I don't see him on this forum .
[/quote]

Well I did say some harsh things toward Michael.... He really upset me when he clearly was misrepresenting his product and GHL seemed to back him too which frustrated me even further....I try not to let my emotions run so high any more but man I am about 2/3s through that RC thread and I would definitely be posting for sure if I could lol....obviously not in the way I did towards Michael, but I have soooooo many ?s and doubts and oh man why do I have to be banned!!!!! but did I miss something or what tester is the OP using?? Anyways, gonna finish up reading through the thread....


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[AdInfinitum]

Perhaps a mod could open a new thread with a lot of discussion about the RC thread and the nitrate and phosphate levels from this thread transferred over....?


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I second...  This is currently my topic of interest...

And in the interest of full disclosure my current levels are NO3 40ppm (Salifert), Total Phosphorous less than 10 ppb (readings 3ppb and 8ppb Hanna ULR...My current target is 30ppb)

As most of you know I will usually throw in my 2 cents worth of experience when someone attributes their tank crash, fish death, etc. etc. to the 5ppm of nitrates they found when they ran tests after the event.

I don't want to sound like a "pro nitrate crank" and I am constantly battling to lower my old tank persistently high nitrates but...  If you look at the literature out there specifically with regards to the effects of localized industrial effluents on coral growth the nitrates have extremely low demonstrated toxicity to coral growth and at levels slightly elevated above base sea water levels can actually increase growth rate versus controls.  Not in any way commenting on colouration as there is not too much scientific literature quantifying the aesthetic effects.

I am coming to believe that the NO3/PO4 ratio is much like the other Ionic balancing acts that we carry out in reefkeeping.  My current imbalance has had negative effects on my Monti's (colour loss) and LPS (some recession) as I have been experimenting with altering PO4 levels given my high and all too stable NO3 levels.  Therefore my target level of 30ppb Phosphorous. 

I started down this road when I noticed that my tank's colouration and growth rate across all coral types consistently peaked close to the end of my GFO cycle.  I started watching and testing and found that the tank was at its best after the PO4 began to become measurable but would be accompanied by algal growth with only a slight further rise.  Given the NO3/PO4 ratio for metabolism, in most of your clean tanks NO3 is much more likely to act as your limiting ion to unwanted growth and bearing in mind that Cyano has to be considered separately given that it has the metabolic capability to both fix nitrogen if required and metabolise inorganic forms of phosphorous. (An amazing organism)

PO4 stops being a significant limiting factor in calcification at levels much higher than most of us running GFO will usually see, however calcification is an energy intensive process driven by the metabolic processes of the Zoox as well as by the food energy they produce (Calcification rates are much much higher during the daylight period).  All of these inter and intra cellular activities are driven by high levels of the cells' energy carrier molecule Adenosine Triphosphate.  Thus the idea that if you do can limit algal growth with low nitrate levels you should be able to optimize growth by allowing some available phosphates to persist in the water column.

Now I will freely admit that I haven't read any of the threads elsewhere on this subject and that a lot of the knowledge that I am working from may be obsolete... So I would be interested in any and all references and people's experiences in this discussion especially as it pertains to our very micro-cosmic systems that in reality are far removed from "working" like natural reef environments in many ways.  I will happily contribute my experiences and observations from the perspective of my old high nutrient system as honestly and free of ego investment as I can.