Reef Raft Aussie LPS

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Duke

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also, these patented plants I believe are genetically modified isolated strains and its the seeds they are able patent, if you could in a lab genetically change an blue acro with white polyps into a pink acro with both red and green polyps, and make it grow from a seed maybe a patent would be something you could get. Very interesting topic, that's just my thoughts on it, anyone find anything online relating to this?

I just read this online.

You can only get patents for subject matter that's man-made and the product of a technical process; in other words, for something that's been invented.

In other words, you can only patent a living thing containing a newly found gene if the 'thing' has been deliberately altered by genetic engineering or biotechnology to introduce or modify that gene. An example of a patentable 'thing' is a genetically modified organism (GMO).

You cannot patent a living thing if the 'thing' is a human being. Subsection 18(2) of the Patents Act 1990 expressly excludes human beings, and processes for making human beings from patentability.

It's also important to remember that this type of subject matter must also meet the other standard requirements for a patent. For example, the 'thing' must be new and inventive and the patent specification must describe the process for making the 'thing' in such a way that someone reading the specification would know how to reproduce the 'thing'.
 

jroovers

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Duke link said:
also, these patented plants I believe are genetically modified isolated strains and its the seeds they are able patent, if you could in a lab genetically change an blue acro with white polyps into a pink acro with both red and green polyps, and make it grow from a seed maybe a patent would be something you could get. Very interesting topic, that's just my thoughts on it, anyone find anything online relating to this?

I just read this online.

You can only get patents for subject matter that's man-made and the product of a technical process; in other words, for something that's been invented.

In other words, you can only patent a living thing containing a newly found gene if the 'thing' has been deliberately altered by genetic engineering or biotechnology to introduce or modify that gene. An example of a patentable 'thing' is a genetically modified organism (GMO).

You cannot patent a living thing if the 'thing' is a human being. Subsection 18(2) of the Patents Act 1990 expressly excludes human beings, and processes for making human beings from patentability.

It's also important to remember that this type of subject matter must also meet the other standard requirements for a patent. For example, the 'thing' must be new and inventive and the patent specification must describe the process for making the 'thing' in such a way that someone reading the specification would know how to reproduce the 'thing'.

It is my understanding this isn't entirely correct, at least not in the states.  The mindblowing thing in the States is that certain drug and pharmaceutical companies are already patenting parts of the human genome in hopes that they will hold the exclusive rights for treatment and drugs for therapies that treat genetic diseases.  That's right, many genes in your body have been patented.  Also, companies patent gene mutations in things such as transgenic mice in order to control research on finding a specific treatment for that disease.  E.g., you can't research that condition using genetically mutated mice, because you don't have a patent to do so (or me, the patent holder, hasn't given you permission).

In terms of plants, almost all plants produced commerically are cloned (asexual reproduction verus sexual).  I imagine most new varieties are created through hybridization, which is a form of sexual reproduction (think Gregor Mendell and his hybridized pea pods in highschool biology).  Here is what the US Patent and Trademark Office states is a plant patent (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/plant/), note the "discovered" part:

A plant patent is granted by the Government to an inventor (or the inventor's heirs or assigns) who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced a distinct and new variety of plant, other than a tuber propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. The grant, which lasts for 20 years from the date of filing the application, protects the inventor's right to exclude others from asexually reproducing, selling, or using the plant so reproduced. This protection is limited to a plant in its ordinary meaning:

A living plant organism which expresses a set of characteristics determined by its single, genetic makeup or genotype, which can be duplicated through asexual reproduction, but which can not otherwise be "made" or "manufactured." - Jordan's note, corals would fit this description.

Sports, mutants, hybrids, and transformed plants are comprehended; sports or mutants may be spontaneous or induced. Hybrids may be natural, from a planned breeding program, or somatic in source. While natural plant mutants might have naturally occurred, they must have been discovered in a cultivated area. - Jordan's note, ie my frag tank.

Algae and macro fungi are regarded as plants, but bacteria are not. - Jordan's note - what would zooanthelae be considered as - bacteria or algae - we know they have aspects of both!

The information presented in this publication is tailored to apply to and is limited to patents on asexually reproduced plants.
 

jroovers

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I didn't highlight the emphasis in the patent language of "asexual reproduction", as we all know how easy it is to clone and share SPS, so obviously corals would easily fit that description.

Also, I wonder if a "cultivated area" would include a mariculture business in hawaii for example that uses natural seawater - I can't see why not! 
 

Duke

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Its all very interesting, im sure the description you found can be interpreted to cover coral like your saying, but it must not be that easy.. or people would already be on top of it. I just don't see how we can consider any coral as being a distinct new variety that someone has created, when its all getting yanked from the ocean, when they mention discovered, I believe they are referring to in a laboratory or controlled experiment, not finding it in the ocean.
 

teebone110

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Interesting.  I have 3 "real" Red Planets all from different sources, and I do not even have one of Dwayne's frags yet. I think that there are so many different versions of a named coral that identifying a specific strand is almost impossible unless you have a certificate of lineage from an authorized seller.
 

jroovers

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Duke link said:
Its all very interesting, im sure the description you found can be interpreted to cover coral like your saying, but it must not be that easy.. or people would already be on top of it. I just don't see how we can consider any coral as being a distinct new variety that someone has created, when its all getting yanked from the ocean, when they mention discovered, I believe they are referring to in a laboratory or controlled experiment, not finding it in the ocean.

The first patent is obviously the most expensive one as it sets the precedent.  It would be risky to spend lots of money on the lawyers and have it fall through, which you would obviously have to do to be the first to do it, but I can't see how it is any different than plants.  A rose came from a forest, wild area etc. before it was placed in a garden and cloned or hybridized.  It wasn't "created", and in fact the US patent language says that it can't be otherwise created to be patented, but it has to be reproducable asexually. A coral is no different, just it is sitting in my tank in my house as opposed to the ground in my backyard.  I could be wrong, but plant hybrids aren't created in a lab - they are created by commercial operators through old school sexual cross germination, cloning/splicing and grafting, and I'm sure in some cases genetic manipulation (I would think this type would be more applicable to patented agricultural products like corn), and I'm sure by avid hobbyists like you and I who want the immortalized destinction of creating a variety.  A cultivated area is a pretty vague description which could mean frag tank, maricultured ocean spot, or something of that sort.  Anyhow, I posted on RC to see if anyone has tried it.
 

spyd

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It would certainly be expensive to get the patents as you would need to patent the specific biological strain of your coral. One with the slightest variance would be fair game though. Not sure if it would be worth it or not.
 
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reeffreak

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spyd link said:
It would certainly be expensive to get the patents as you would need to patent the specific biological strain of your coral. One with the slightest variance would be fair game though. Not sure if it would be worth it or not.

I agree with the above the fact that your red planet may not look like mine because of difference in light and nutrients it would be to hard to tell if there different or the same
 

jroovers

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spyd link said:
It would certainly be expensive to get the patents as you would need to patent the specific biological strain of your coral. One with the slightest variance would be fair game though. Not sure if it would be worth it or not.

Yes, money would be the deciding factor.  With plants, there is an enormous market I'm sure as evidenced by every home improvement and garden centre carrying such products.  With corals, it may come to it one day.  They may view it as a mute point however as they know that reefers are a generous bunch, and that someone is more likely to buy a frag from a friend than purchase directly from a supplier.  I'm sure avid gardeners do the same, exchange clones of plants for a fee or trade.
 

Darryl_V

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Interesting turn in conversation....haha.  This thread is all over the place but has been a good discussion.

teebone110 link said:
Interesting.  I have 3 \"real\" Red Planets all from different sources, and I do not even have one of Dwayne's frags yet. I think that there are so many different versions of a named coral that identifying a specific strand is almost impossible unless you have a certificate of lineage from an authorized seller.
Red planet is poor choice for patent because there are many similar and possibly the same coral coming in from the wild.  I have been to RR a few times and seen Jay pick up a wild coral that is just starting to colour up and he says "thats a red planet".  The only problem is how do you know if it is the exact same.  Will it grow as fast or be as deep red, etc. 

On another note I have been to RR and Jay has shown me a few wild corals calling them "purple monster" and I had to tell him they didnt even look like the same species.  I also purchased a few "named" corals from RR only to discover later that they are different so I take Jay's names with a grain of salt unless they are his own names.  Patents would stop some people from doing this.....

Some corals however are rare enough that you would rarely or never see another very similar coral come in from the wild.  Patents are great but you would have to have a way of controlling the market.  That is probably why you mostly see created hybrids etc. being patented in plants.....because that strain of plant is not wide spread and the market can now be controlled.  So for corals if you decided to patent a coral you better make sure its rare and you are the only one who posses it (possibly pulling all of that particular coral from the ocean for your control) or you wont be able to control the market.

Its an interesting thought (patents) but in the end we are such a niche market, plus the money and logistics of it all, would make it prohibitive to even try.  Very interesting that it could be done though Jordan.....who knows maybe Im wrong and it will happen one day.  But my gut says it would be a bad thing for the hobby if it did anyway.
 

Blob-79

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this sounds all fine and dandy when you compare corals to plants...however corals are not plants. Are they not animals? Sure there are patents out for genomes, for genetic research. There are not any patents for full animals or inverts. Im sure if you had a lab or the money to invest you may be able to patent certain attributes of a coral..saying this, im pretty sure you would also have to be able to alter those attributes to be able to patent it.
 
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reeffreak

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Ya I don't think environmentalist groups would let the idea of patenting coral fly , like Darryl said would almost be impossible to tell what coral is what from one tank to another
 

chuckm

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teebone110 link said:
Interesting.  I have 3 \"real\" Red Planets all from different sources, and I do not even have one of Dwayne's frags yet. I think that there are so many different versions of a named coral that identifying a specific strand is almost impossible unless you have a certificate of lineage from an authorized seller.

Will the real Red Panet please stand up! 8)
 

jroovers

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Yes, good discussion either way.  Corals are neither plant nor animal, but I would suggest they are plant like enough that they could fit the plant description (we could debate this one until the cows come home).  You do not need to create a plant in a lab to patent it... that isn't the case and I think it is a lot simpler than that if you look at the requirements for plants.  "Discovering" is sufficient enough... and we all know that with corals and sexual reproduction, as with plants and sexual reporduction, an infinite number of species or varieties exist when considering cross hybridization.   

My take is that there isn't currently enough incentive to patent corals... because too much wild coral importation occurs.  In the future, if we see continued global warming, ocean acidification, pollution etc. that continue to lead to declining reefs world wide, and/or if more strigent reef protection and reef importation laws prevent new stock from coming in, then supply would significantly decline, and assuming demand still exists, coral costs could climb.  In such a scenario, maybe there would be enough incentive to try and patent varities of corals given the economics. 

In terms of environmental groups... good luck on stopping anything.  I sympathize with these organizations, and support the efforts of many, but the human rights groups opposed to gene patenting didn't get very far, and we're talking human genes and life threatening degentic defects, not plant or coral material. 

Anyhow, its a Brave New World... I've got some of those "real" ORA red planet frags that I need to put on plugs, so I'll let it rest... stay tuned in the classifieds  8)
 
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