Problems Keeping Zoanthids

[yveterinarian]

I'm writing this post in order to get some ideas on how to help my reef tank improve. Currently my tank is a 65 gallon bowfront with a 35 gallon sump and a 20 gallon tank tied into the system for clownfish. My tank was started with marco rock and has a 4-5" deep sandbed for my Garden Eel. I'm not sure how much rock I have in the tank but I also have some in the sump. I'm guessing between the two I have 70-80 lbs. The 20 gallon has a 1" sandbed and 3 large rocks. My protein skimmer is a Super Reef octopus RO-PS-1000INT rated for 125 gallons and pulls out a lot of thick skim mate. I do not have a filter sock or floss on the system. My lights are LED and are sitting about 8" above the tank. I have some red macro algae and some caulerpa in the clown tank which is growing well and I weed out on a regular basis. Unfortunately, the red macroalgae has migrated into the 65 gallon tank and is taking over in some places. I pull it out of there often.

My problem is that I can't seem to keep zoanthids alive for any length of time. I also can't seem to keep xenia or GSP alive either. I realize that most people feel that GSP is a nuisance and I'm better off without it but I thought I'd mention that mine all died. My tank has no hair algae, no cyano.

My bubble coral is doing great and my kenya tree is propagating itself all over the tank quite nicely. My leathers are still alive but I don't seem to have the amount of polyp extension that I used to have.

Somehow I have gotten some red bubble algae into my tank from and unknown source that has taken over many areas and I'm not quite sure how to get rid of it. Should I be removing each rock and bleaching it? I will do that as a last resort but would like to think of something else first.

I live in the country and am on a well system so my tank originally started out with well water but for the last year I have been purchasing RO water because my well water is high in nitrates. Getting an RO/DI system is not an option for me as I would be wasting too much water and my well has run out of water in the past during dry spells.

I would like to take a minimalist approach to treating my tank because I a.) don't have room for more equipment in my sump and b.) don't have the resources currently to make large changes to my system. I dose Kent Turbo Calcium a couple of times a week.

A few months ago I decided to try Vodka dosing after reading quite a bit about it and currently my nitrates have decreased from 100 to 10 ppm and my phosphates have decreased from 1 to 0.25 ppm. Both levels have gone up a bit since I got the sea apple because I have been trying to make sure I'm feeding it well. This week I increased the vodka to counteract the increase in feeding so I'm hoping the levels will go down again. Other parameters include: Salinity 1.024, Temp 80*F, pH 8.2, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrites 0 ppm.

I realize that my nitrates and phosphates are a large part of my issue but I'm wondering if anything else jumps out at you.

 

[Reef Hero]

How are your other params such as alk, ca, mag ? And have they been stable?
Also, when your no3 and po4 were higher were you able to grow GSP, Xenia, and zoos? Or have they always died off for you?
Having an RODI system is fairly important also..... But atleast you are purchasing RO I guess. My only question is have you been testing the tds of the RO water you are buying? Red bubble algae is not good either. If your no3 is 10ppm then I'd say that's not bad....id aim more for 5ppm. Your po4 could still come down some too IMO.... If that reading is correct then you are twice what most seawater is.


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[SamB]

I don't think that even regular tap water (Prime added) would not support zoas but of course RO is the way to go
Aside from that, are you feeding your corals? In my opinion, zoanthids need reef roids, coral frenzy, etc on a regular basis - I feed twice a week

 

[yveterinarian]

How are your other params such as alk, ca, mag ? And have they been stable?
Also, when your no3 and po4 were higher were you able to grow GSP, Xenia, and zoos? Or have they always died off for you?
Having an RODI system is fairly important also..... But atleast you are purchasing RO I guess. My only question is have you been testing the tds of the RO water you are buying? Red bubble algae is not good either. If your no3 is 10ppm then I'd say that's not bad....id aim more for 5ppm. Your po4 could still come down some too IMO.... If that reading is correct then you are twice what most seawater is.


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It has been a little while since I tested Alk and Cal so I'll have to get back to you on that one. I'll test now and post in a bit. I have never been able to keep either zoos or xenia for very long. The xenia just melts away and the zoos start out well then close, stay closed and get smaller. The ones I have in there right now have been in there for approximately a year but are beginning to get smaller now. I have been looking closely at them to see if I could see any parasites but I can't (doesn't mean they are not there though). I am still trying to get the NO3 and PO4 down and they are coming down slowly. I have not been testing the TDS of the water I am purchasing because I don't have a meter. That's a good idea. Does anyone have a meter I could borrow for a little bit to test it?

I don't think that even regular tap water (Prime added) would not support zoas but of course RO is the way to go
Aside from that, are you feeding your corals? In my opinion, zoanthids need reef roids, coral frenzy, etc on a regular basis - I feed twice a week

I feed Reef Roids 2x/week at the moment and always have since I got my first coral. I feed the fish frozen mysis shrimp and I feed the Sea Apple a super concentrated phytoplankon every day.

 

[Reef Hero]

I don't think that even regular tap water (Prime added) would not support zoas but of course RO is the way to go
Aside from that, are you feeding your corals? In my opinion, zoanthids need reef roids, coral frenzy, etc on a regular basis - I feed twice a week

Define "regular tap water" ? Lol
Thing is that just because one person is having success using their tap water does not mean someone else will where their water supply is different. If I was ever to consider using it I would consult the treatment plant and municipality to understand what is being used to treat the water.... And even then I would be testing it quite heavily on my own. Using prime is not going to remove most dissolved solids in tap water. I don't believe it does anything to neutralize chloramine or metals. It's mostly just for chlorine, no?
I want to mention too that I see lots of people keeping zoos successfully for years without ever heavily feeding them. Their nitrate count tho seems to hit the sweet spot at 5-10ppm no3. Why you can't keep GSP or Xenia is baffling tho.... Even I can grow it as my no3 and po4 is loooooooow lol and no I rarely ever spot feed.


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[yveterinarian]

Calcium 400 using a Salifert test kit. Alkalinity 206 ppm using a Hanna checker.

 

[Pistol]

I made this from an old scraper handle I had, I turn off all flow in the tank and use it to remove bubble algae while siphoning, that way if the bubble breaks you don't get the spores in the tank.
Also I think zoas require good lighting, have you tried them high in the tank?

[URL=http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/Cal_stir/media/DSC00407-1.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/Cal_stir/media/DSC00408.jpg.html] [/URL]

 

[Reef Hero]

Have you always kept your alk close to 12dkh. Again, comparing to most seawater this is a decent amount higher.....your calcium is not bad.... Wouldn't hurt to bump it up a bit.


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[Reef Hero]

+1 for lighting too! Often confused are reefers when it comes to lightin requirements. The old thinking that sps needs high light and softies need low light has been disproved beyond the point where I still can't believe some still swear by it.


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[Pistol]

Have you always kept your alk close to 12dkh. Again, comparing to most seawater this is a decent amount higher.....your calcium is not bad.... Wouldn't hurt to bump it up a bit.


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My zoas grow at 12dkh no problem.

 

[Reef Hero]

My zoas grow at 12dkh no problem.

I only mentioned it because 12 is high..... So I was more curious if this is the normal parameter for the tank.


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[MrHermit85]

I made this from an old scraper handle I had, I turn off all flow in the tank and use it to remove bubble algae while siphoning, that way if the bubble breaks you don't get the spores in the tank.
Also I think zoas require good lighting, have you tried them high in the tank?

as far as I know, zoas don't need crazy light to grow... mine have all done well in low light conditions on the sand bed with minimal lighting over the top. I have however had Zoa's melt away if they were high in the tank. I have also never fed my zoanthids or any of my LPS other than brains and acans and have always had great colour and growth. This is just from my experience and IMO though.

Have you got any livestock that could be eating them? I had a fox face and a rusty angel that would chomp all of mine, usually the fancy ones lol .

 

[Reef Hero]

as far as I know, zoas don't need crazy light to grow... mine have all done well in low light conditions on the sand bed with minimal lighting over the top. I have however had Zoa's melt away if they were high in the tank. I have also never fed my zoanthids or any of my LPS other than brains and acans and have always had great colour and growth. This is just from my experience and IMO though.

Have you got any livestock that could be eating them? I had a fox face and a rusty angel that would chomp all of mine, usually the fancy ones lol .

+1 to a predator
What's in the tank?


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[scubasteve]

if they are closing up then melting away and you have no algae forming on plug if they are in a lower flow area detritus can build up between the polyps and will eventually kill them off try blowing them off every couple days if you see a cloud of dust blowing out they may need more flow..... i do have some zoos that like it half way up and others on bottom but have acclimated them to sit way up by my acros as well in very intense but most should do wellin low light... they definately have more than enough food and they tend to like a little bit "dirty" water anyway when i had similar issues it was almost always flow being too low alowing buildup but if they blow clean im baffled.... the iodide might help a bit but think its more for better colour and growth. Hopefully you can get it figured out they are great for adding colour. take a look at night too and look for what look like little white tentacles reaching around near the zoas or hoards of amphipods

 

[yveterinarian]

Have you always kept your alk close to 12dkh. Again, comparing to most seawater this is a decent amount higher.....your calcium is not bad.... Wouldn't hurt to bump it up a bit.


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When I first started reefing my alk was too high to read with the hanna checker and my calcium was too low. Once I changed to the RO water the alk seems to have leveled out at this value. However I haven't checked it in quite a while so it may have had some ups and downs that I'm not aware of.
When I first had difficulties with the alkalinity I read A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH by Randy Holmes-Farley and tried to follow it but got out of the habit of checking. I will be more vigilant in checking those parameters.

Have you got any livestock that could be eating them? I had a fox face and a rusty angel that would chomp all of mine, usually the fancy ones lol .

At the moment I have 1 PJ Cardinal, 1 Blue green Chromis, 1 Six line Wrasse, 2 Lemon Chromis, 1 Copperband Butterfly and 1 Garden Eel. CUC includes Trochus snails, Ceriths, Nassarius snails and a couple of tiny hermit crabs (can't remember which kind). There are tons of micro Brittle Stars in there and I see a lot of their tentacles around the zoanthids.

For lighting placement see the picture below:

The Zoanthids are placed approximately halfway up in the areas circled red. The Xenia was in the area circled yellow and the GSP was in the two areas circled green. I have a Koralia 1400 power head facing close to the zoos on the right but the zoos on the left do not have one close to them.

take a look at night too and look for what look like little white tentacles reaching around near the zoas or hoards of amphipods

Steve, would the white tentacles be the micro brittle stars? I have tons of them.

 

[scubasteve]

When I first started reefing my alk was too high to read with the hanna checker and my calcium was too low. Once I changed to the RO water the alk seems to have leveled out at this value. However I haven't checked it in quite a while so it may have had some ups and downs that I'm not aware of.
When I first had difficulties with the alkalinity I read A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH by Randy Holmes-Farley and tried to follow it but got out of the habit of checking. I will be more vigilant in checking those parameters.



At the moment I have 1 PJ Cardinal, 1 Blue green Chromis, 1 Six line Wrasse, 2 Lemon Chromis, 1 Copperband Butterfly and 1 Garden Eel. CUC includes Trochus snails, Ceriths, Nassarius snails and a couple of tiny hermit crabs (can't remember which kind). There are tons of micro Brittle Stars in there and I see a lot of their tentacles around the zoanthids.

For lighting placement see the picture below:

The Zoanthids are placed approximately halfway up in the areas circled red. The Xenia was in the area circled yellow and the GSP was in the two areas circled green. I have a Koralia 1400 power head facing close to the zoos on the right but the zoos on the left do not have one close to them.


Steve, would the white tentacles be the micro brittle stars? I have tons of them.

No its a common pest that hides in lr they are known to bug zoos

 

[yveterinarian]

Okay, I'll try to look for something other than my micro brittle stars.

 

[reefgeek]

After a quick read through I am going to guess that you have an issue with species competition. Almost all corals (especially leathers) generate a toxic substance that inhibits the growth of competing coral. Other leathers are generally able to tolerate this secretion much better than zoas and gsp (for example) but could still effect each other. I see no mention of the use of GAC in your post which is a vital component of removing this toxic secretion, you also mention that your skimmer pulls out an abundance of thick skimmate, which is another clue that there is a lot of biological activity in the tank, again hinting that these secretions might be overwhelming the tank. If you do not do so already, I would get a high grade GAC and run that 100% of the time for the next few months, changing it at least every month, maybe more, and watch to see if your polyp extension improves. Alternatively increasing your water change frequency can have the same effect.

 

[SamB]

I like what reefgeek posts

I keep no softies so I wouldn't have experienced the biological issues that reefgeek mentions

Give reefgeek's suggestions a try

 

[saltyair]

Some very solid advice - gac is a must in a softy dominated tank. I was having an issue wth some lps I took out my devils hand and it seemed to work.

On zoa's flow is very important followed by lighting.
A few things to look at.
- mag
- cyano, hydiods and diatoms
what kind of lighting?
Also I would start all zoa low and slowly rise. Don't be afraid to move them around if they are not doing well.