TAP WATER

[Blob-79]

i run a 9 stage rodi unit

lol holy crap..and I thought the 7 stage rodi unit I just bought was a beast. mind sharing what the 9 stages all are?

 

[Cal_stir]

1) 5 micron sediment
2) 5 micron carbon block(just a cheap one as i chg it more frequently)
3) 1 micron sediment( to catch the crap coming out of the cheap carbon block)
4) granular activated carbon
5) matrix 1 micron carbon block
6) 100 gpd membrane
7,8,9) colour changing DI resin

I change 1 and 2 every 6 months
I change the rest when my TDS hits 1ppm

notice the colour of the 1st stage, it's the single cartridge up high, it's rust, time to chg.

 

[Cal_stir]

how do you de-thumbnail the pictures?

 

[Blob-79]

wow...big system. alot more then I was expecting lol. to de thumbnail an image, look at the code, delete the .th part close to the end. that will make it show full size

 

[iantower]

LOL... I love when this topic comes up... lets all agree that some of us go one way and some go the other. We are all in this hobby together and are on the same side.
When I argue the tap water point its just my side guys and my experience shows that it is possible, that's all... RODI is not the holy grail... my first reef tank was without a protein skimmer and with tap water and no sump, just an air stone and a HOB filter for water movement... and some how it worked... though it was a lot of work and a lot of attention that wasnt needed if you had the bell and whistles.
My point being if your in my neighborhood and you want to start up a saltwater tank on a budget, to see if you like it or whatever, you can save on some stuff...
If you like it and want to go all out then yes.... get a RO/DI unit, get a protein skimmer, get a calcium reactor, get a UV reactor, get a sump, buy three reactors one for phosphates, one for carbon and one for the newest thing (Zeolit right now). Drip Kalk, dose vodka, get 4-5 watts/gal of light, water turn over 10X/hr, auto top off unit, pH probe....
There are plenty of things that a hobbyist can do, but we dont need to do all of it, and a RO/DI unit falls into that category. 
Don't hate, it is proven, I proved it with my tank and others have as well. Have some had crashes because of tap water, yeah, have soe had crashes due to bad units? Yeah... dripping Kalk? Yeah... Vodka? Yeah....
Everything has risk in this hobby....

WE SHOULD ALL FEEL FREE TO POST OUR FEELINGS, OPINIONS, AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCES ON HERE... AND BE FREE TO DEBATE IT... like adults please, if we start acting like children then we can all meet out by the bike racks and last kid standing is the one thats right.

I ordered a RO/DI unit today... but like I said, if your reading this and your new to the hobby know you can get to my point without all the bells and whistles... including RO?DI units... Just my experience.

No harm boys... Cheers!

 

[Blob-79]

Thing is you say straight up how much more work using tap water is...so why would you recomend it to a beginning hobbyest?

This isnt an debate on "will tap water work" We all know yes it is possible..the question we are asking is.."is it worth it"
Water at a water store is not very costly..so why take the chance if you dont want to buy an ro unit.

The crashes you mention with vodka, kalk, bad units. other then bad ro units vodka and kalk are more advanced tactics, and should only be used by advanced persons, any crash that was "proven" to be caused by use of vodka or kalk (notice the "") the vodka or kalk was being used improperly.  In the case of a bad ro unit..there is no such thing, if the ro unit is installed correctly, filters maintained properly, and tank water tested properly, you will never have a crash due to a bad ro unit.

All these things you mention possibly going wrong, are user error. IMO so is using tap water

 

[reeffreak]

Ian post a pic of your tank ... Cal post a pic of your tank ... I bet I know who's comes out on top with no algea collocted up on the sanded

 

[reeffreak]

Pictures are worth a thousand words

 

[shayneh]

Iantower....When I started reefing almost 20 years ago we used airstone driven undergravel filters and our skimmers were nothing more than a long tube with a wooden airstone. We used coral skeletons for decorations, it was common to lose livestock and yes tap water was the norm. This is now 2011 and experience and the findings of great contributors to this hobby (Anthony Calfo, Robert Fenner, John Tullock and more) has taught me that running ro/di is as crucial a component to a successfull setup as lights, water flow, and decent live rock/bacterial filtration media. As Blob pointed out the aim of this hobby is not to simply have our livestock survive but thrive and act as they would in the wild. This includes but is not limited to spawning events in fish and coral and healthy livestock that lives longer than they would in the wild (for example 16 year old clownfish). You mentioned that ro/di is not the holy grail and I would have to say "IT IS". Having water with 0TDS has made it very easy for us all to keep corals that require pristine water conditions as well as help to find the cause of any outbreaks/hiccups in our systems. Feel free to read back through every forum on the net and every time someone asks for help on a cyano or diatom outbreak the first question posted is almost always "Are you running ro/di and what are your TDS readings?"  Another thing my 20 years of marine experience has taught me is that when someone decides to switch from freshies or start a marine setup they are already hooked (ha ha ha!). The only time I ever see people leave the hobby completely is when they suffer catastrophic failures time and time again from following shitty advice....this is also more expensive in the long run when compared to the initial outlay of capital for the ro/di. Another thing to remember is how many extra hours are then required to battle all the outbreaks that accompany the nasty water. I would urge others to think of it this way..... I charge $100/hour to my clients for drafting agreements etc. your time is worth money and if your spending an extra 6 hours per month mucking about in your tank how long will it take before the ro/di makes it a financially viable alternative. As much as I like getting in the tank and goofing around I would much rather sit back and drink some Corona/Stella/Guiness and watch the tank.  

Iant you gave your opinions on items not needed by beginners and I agree and disagree with some of your findings there. I would also like to point out to any folks thinking of starting a system and reading this that it is often much easier to incorporate items like this prior to start up as opposed to trying to add them after the system is set up and established.....which is why they are often recommended.

-If your willing to do extra water changes you can get away without a skimmer.
-Although it has a long list of benefits you don't absolutely need a sump. (please note: this is hard to reliably add afterward)  
-Calcium reactors, Zeovit reactors, VSV dosing, UV lights, and phosphate reactors are all not essential components (and some aren't required with regular ro/di water changes)
-ATO's aren't essential (I use a water jug with an airline to drip water lost to evap back into my tank)
-Kalk when used correctly will never cause a crash until all the phosphates that it binds up from your poor choice of water hit such high concentrations that it releases them back into your water column and nukes the tank.
-Carbon is a matter of personal choice and it's so inexpensive it's barely worth mentioning.
-Higher water flow rates help keep detritus suspended as well as aid gas exchange at the water surface and a random flow pattern helps simulate a reef environment (which makes our little friends in the tank happy, keeps some nuisance algae at bay, and makes visitors jaws drop).

I don't see anyone on here acting childish or "hating" but there are many of us that vehemently oppose what your defending as an option to beginners. This is basically the same as defending the notion that it's OK to take a shit in your tank because the mechanical filtration (filter sock or whatever) will remove it. Again no one debates that running without ro/di isn't possible but if you want your tank to be successfull and healthy as well as eliminate one of the major causes of crashes what's another $200 in the grand scheme?

Along with photos I am also interested to know what kind of coral and livestock you are keeping Iantower as this may also help others to determine if running without an ro/di is an option for them.

If you feel like we are all coming down on you let"s all at least agree that you have been "somewhat lucky" (because diatoms suck) and that this is not the recommended way for beginners to set up a system.  

LOL my book will be available for print next month....Cheers!

 

[shayneh]

Hey Blob I was also going to recommend that you mount the di resin stages vertically like Cal has. It allows for more efficient use of the resin. I found that when my di resin was horizontal the resin on the bottom of the canister always changed colour faster. Once I rotated it to vertical, I started getting more uniform depletion. My ro/di is old school with just the one large canister.....I'm starting to think it's time for an upgrade and I'll use the old system like Cal for prefiltration.

It's amazing how nasty the filters get from water that appears clear coming from the tap....

 

[Blob-79]

This is basically the same as defending the notion that it's OK to take a shit in your tank because the mechanical filtration (filter sock or whatever) will remove it.

...wait are you saying this is frowned upon?



ya shayney, I was actually contemplating putting my di resin virtical, cant wait it should be here on thursday!
thanks for the advise, now i will definitly put them vertical.

 

[shayneh]

LMAO.....it might make the skimmer bubble over and if you thought your skimmate was nasty smelling before!

 

[iantower]

Alright Shayneh Im done with this agrument lol, you wore me out, as did you Blop... but if I was told in the beginning of this hobby that I needed to use RO/DI water and everything else that they say is needed I never would of started. I fell in love with the hobby running the basics, and so as I expanded and added different specimens I also upgraded equipment. My argument is and always will be, dont go out and buy everything that everyone tells you to buy (RO units) until you know this is the hobby for you. As soon as you buy a piece of equipment it loses 50% of its value... so beginners use Tap water lol.... BUT use it with caution and dont just listen to me as you can see there are A LOT of people that oppose it, and for good reasons... but Ive said it before and Ill say it again... Ive done it and its been fine... but we all know what they say in this hobby, what works for one person doesnt always work for the next.
 

 

[Blob-79]

no need to buy an ro unit when starting out..I only happened to already have one when I started my tank. Most water stores have special days you can buy a jug for $2, if not most DIY beer or wine stores will fill your jugs for about the same price, its not out of anyones grasp to use ro water.

 

[Blob-79]

lol it just crossed my mind..if you think we wore you down lol..can you imagine how a thread like this would go on a site full of elitists like aquariumpros

 

[shayneh]

Iantower I don't know who "they" is and what else "they" said was needed for a new tank, but "I" said ro/di is crucial ha ha ha! I can appreciate your cynicism and there is a lot of misinformation out there. I realize that some stores would love to hook a newbie up with a uv sterilizer and additives and this and that but like Blob says there are plenty of places to get properly filtered water and you even admit that you have issues with your tank. Like I have admitted... I started with an airstone driven system and when I look back I suffered heavy losses and had limited success. Our goal is to help others set up their systems right the first time and as their experience grows they can branch off using various advanced methodology (VSV, Zeovit, calcium reactors etc...).

The biggest problem is that all of us are willing to skip a step to save a buck if we hear that someone has done it successfully. You still, even in your last post, claim this is possible with tap water and yet also allude to an ongoing battle with diatoms. I have only ever had diatoms when I skipped on my water changes for about 2 months or more.... If I listened to you and added local tap water to my system it would crash because the Nitrates and Phosphates are crazy high at 40ppm my SPS would most likely suffer RTN overnight and the rest would become a giant green mess of hair algae. To a newbie in my area things would start out fine but over weeks and months it would simply look like a planted freshie tank (gotta love those pretty green rocks).

There are some costs associated with this hobby and pure water is one of those items that I consider a true "must have" for anyone. Why does someone starting out have to buy brand new? Check out Ebay and kijiji or other local reefing forums and buy a decent used ro/di or any other equipment (just remember to thoroughly educate yourself with it first...google is awesome). Hell if someone near me were setting up I would give them the water for a beer rather than watch them waste their time, money and efforts on what will be an utter failure and I'm sure others would do the same. Whenever I set up a new tank I hit my local Water Depot and buy the water in the 5g jugs. Something like 14 jugs is $30 and I would rather see someone spend this up front and buy one less $30 fish for the tank if they are on a limited budget than spend $200 later on treatments and restocking, not to mention all the time, frustration, and anger that can accompany the battle with poor water quality issues.

Again if people are successful at the offset they will stay in the hobby and using ro/di water is the most efficient means of doing so.

I'm also still wondering what you have in your tank as far as livestock and coral go, and your oldest inhabitants?

LMAO..... Blob I would imagine Ian would be banned from aquariumpros for spewing forth such heresy. We would have to help him go underground and hide with all the guys that keep tangs in tanks too small for their needs.

 

[Blob-79]

LMAO..... Blob I would imagine Ian would be banned from aquariumpros for spewing forth such heresy. We would have to help him go underground and hide with all the guys that keep tangs in tanks too small for their needs.

hahaha shit I forgot about the tang police.. :

 

[iantower]

LMAO..... Blob I would imagine Ian would be banned from aquariumpros for spewing forth such heresy. We would have to help him go underground and hide with all the guys that keep tangs in tanks too small for their needs.

Careful on the direct slams there Shayney...

 

[shayneh]

Hey Iantower....I'm not bashing you bud...the group on AP are wayyyyy more outspoken about these matters and I'm a member there and so is blob and we were basically making fun of some of the other folks there. That's why the cracks about the tang police....anyhow...I'm sorry if that made you upset. I could see how if your not familiar with that particular forum you might think we were slamming you. 

 

[Dr BlueThumb]

"You won, your winning" rodi is better.

No. I will not leave the hobby.

I will continue my plain, ugly,low budget,simplistic, tap water tank. I like it and it's all that matter's.