TAP WATER

[shayneh]

Dr. Blue my biggest reason for weighing in so heavily on this matter is that you continue to defend a practice that quite frankly won't work with uniform results from one end of town to the other end of town (different sources of water intake) let alone county to county. It's great it works for you but you don't give all the information in order that others can make an informed decision....primarily what sort of livestock are you keeping, how old are your livestock, and what length of time your tank has been set up?

I wasn't concerned about winning anything (because I have science on my side) and I am glad you can see the merit of running ro/di. I wouldn't want you (or anyone else) to leave the hobby but do want you to understand that my general stance regardless of a persons experience level in this hobby is "using water with lower TDS will do nothing but benefit your system", it will make maintenance and troubleshooting that much easier and allow you to keep higher end corals and fish that prosper with or require, better water conditions.

I fail to see why you continue to have an issue with such a simple concept and would want to promote anything else that may cause catastrophic results for the other forum members.

I'll say it again and again "the concept of a forum is to give other members sound advice that enables their systems to succeed and thrive. I live in Woodstock and fragtank members are scattered across SW Ontario and, although I can't speak for tap water conditions in other places, I can safely say that the concept you so staunchly defend, would have disastrous consequence here. I don't know what else I can say to make you understand that I am simply interested in the success of "EVERY" person here that decides to get into this hobby.

Finally I'm glad you like your plain, ugly, low budget, simplistic, tap water tank........let us know if we can ever help you design a high end, jaw dropping, diverse.......ro/di supplied tank  ;D

 

[Dr BlueThumb]

"plain, ugly,(sarcasm button)"

Some coral's thrive, where sewage is dumped into the water.

Your right I'll try not to mention tap water anymore.

I should of just not mentioned it, I forgot that the forum is to make thing's easy on the new person trying to establish a reef tank.

 

[shayneh]

??? Dr. Blue I have no clue what your saying in your last post......The biggest question I have is with your statement "coral thriving where sewage is dumped in the water." I spent a few minutes researching to see if there is anything on this phenomenon and all I can find is information on how coral reefs thrive in nutrient free waters. I've attached a quote so you have an example of the information I am only able to find.

..."It is estimated that less than 20 percent of sewage water generated in the Caribbean region is treated before entering the ocean. Coral reefs thrive in traditionally nutrient free waters. Untreated sewage is a major source of nutrients entering coastal waters which, under normal circumstances, would be devoid of nutrients. These conditions favor algal growth at the expense of the corals (Souter and Linden, 2000)."...

If you have any links or information to relay that is to the contrary I wholeheartedly welcome this exchange of knowledge......

 

[Blob-79]

Some coral's thrive, where sewage is dumped into the water.

ya...I wasnt even going to glorify that statement with a reply.....

I searched as well..couldnt find anything that even remotely confirms this statement..but lets say even if we give it the benefit of doubt..and some...lets say 5% or corals (very generous) can thrive in lol sewage, too bad the other 95% died.

What I did find in my searches however is report after report of the growing concen that sewage being dumped in the ocean is directly resposible for reefs being destroyed....

 

[Dr BlueThumb]

I little teaser:

"I have been to the Solomons and collected zoos there along side native collectors.

The area where they come from is in one relatively small location just a few feet from the beach in an area where raw sewage can enter the water. They are found everywhere in this location covering the rocks for miles in every direction and are only a few inches to no more than a few feet below the surface, as a matter of fact in this area there are very few found below about 5-10 feet. Large sections can be left out of the water at low tide and waves crash on the colonies constantly. The rocks in this area are covered in hair algae and other macro algae--those that get these colonies direct from the Solomons will often see the colonies are covered in silt and algae. Algae blennies are common in the area, other corals growing in this area are Acropora and Pocillopora, both not so colorful in this area.

When the zoo colonies are cut from the rock often the new exposed rock on the base is black with anaerobic bacteria and all types of worms and other critters. These colonies are held for a relatively short period prior to shipment to the US. The colonies are held in shallow tubs under diffused natural sunlight with minimal water flow.

Upon arrival in the US I always dip them in freshwater for about 10 minutes and then saltwater with Tropic Marin Pro Coral Cure. Usually on a weekly to monthly basis I will import 50-100 4-6 inch colonies. Unlike zoos colledted from other parts of the world, these colonies are sort of shaved off the rocks rather than whole chucks of rock with some zoos on it such as those shipped from Fiji or Bali. Most colonies have an assortment of pests and hitchhikers that fall off in the dips. I then keep them in a shallow vat with intense direct water flow and lots of large Turbo and other assorted snails for 1-2 weeks before doing anything further with them. This works very well in preventing fungal infections and other common problems with these zoos.

Overall, I think the Solomon Island zoos are collected and handled well and the native folks work hard to get us some awesome corals and overall do a great job. They handle lots of different types of corals in volumes, so individual care for each individual colony is not practical, but overall they do a excellent job. Having attempted collecting them myself I can tell you it is difficult. The variety of colors is incredible and blues, reds, and pinks found regularly in this area with most colonies having a mix of colors, multi colored colonies with tightly packed polyps are typical for Solomon zoos.

So, the area where Solomon zoos we get in this country are collected from is a specific shallow tidal pool with intense tropical sunlight, very intense regular wave water flow, high nutrient murky water, the colonies can often be covered in algae and there are relatively few fish in the area so some pests can be allowed to flourish in these colonies growing with tightly packed polyps. I was diving in many other areas in the Solomons and never found zoos in any other areas this leads one to believe that they do need these specific conditions to thrive in the wild.

Growing in this environment explains how hardy these corals can be, but also may explain why some don't do well in certain captive conditions. In my facility I have one SPS system and one soft coral system, the water in the SPS system is more pristine and the zoos definitely do not do as well in that system. This is an observation based upon several years and many hundreds of colonies, not specific individual pieces, ie. these corals are quite adaptable and individual colonies can do exceptionally well under a wide variety of conditions. Someone here will likely say they have some thriving zoos in their SPS dominated tank, but this may not be the general rule for these corals. Colors will fade without intense lighting IME. IMO the most ideal captive environment for these corals is a less heavily skimmed tank that is fed well regularly with very intense lighting and water flow. Definitely most of these corals are sold under the idea that they do well under less lighting and water flow, some colonies can adapt, buy IME to thrive in terms of maximum genetic potential growth and color they will not do their best under low flow and light and too pristine water quality."

 

[robin420]

I also have used tapwater in my tanks for the last 8 years with no problems. And as for the bashing of people by some people on here. I would say grow up people. Its not ur money being spent so shut ur traps. And think about where ur ro water comes from straight from the tap all it takes is a chlorine spike in the water supply and ur setup is dead. As for that happening to me it wont cuz thats what conditioners are for.

Realistically u could run a succesfull reef tank with a aquaclear as long as u do water changes on a regular basis u will be fine. THERE IS NO NEED FOR EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT unless u have a big aquarium.

And for the people with fish only tanks I would highly suggest using tap water with conditioners as the copper from ur pipes will help keep disease out of ur setup.

Also this is a forum and in the rules of this forum it says that there should be no slander or bashing of people on here. Then i read all this bashing by shaneye and blob on ian tower and dr green thumb and if I was the moderator I would be swinging the ban hammer on both of them.

 

[pulpfiction1]

uh oh....... incoming imminent..............        ducks and heads for cover with arms folded over head



LOL

 

[robin420]

lol not to worried about what other people think. My setup has been reliable and I have had nothing die from using tap water and I have had to frag my tank a couple of times.

 

[Cal_stir]

rodi removes all chemicals from the water,(0 tds,18 megaohms resistance, pure H20).
water conditioner is a chemical that is added to tap water to "lock-up" the chemicals in the water,(high tds, low resistance, polluted H2O)
a spike of anything in the water supply will be removed with a good rodi unit
water conditioner doesn't remove anything from the water
i drink my tap water but i wouldn't drink it with water conditioner in it
imo if we are going to keep captive marine creatures then we must do as much as possible to ensure their enviroment is as close to natural sea water as possible and that starts with pure H2O
the fact that i have a lot invested in my system is secondary to the health of my wet pets
this is not bashing, it is facts and my opinion
personnally, i run a 9 stage rodi unit

 

[robin420]

no water in this world is pure h2o it has all been polluted to a point by mankind. And the marine wildlife has adapted itself to live in these conditions. And I know u werent bashing anyone but the other 2 were definetly doing it. I have seen ur setup and it is way overboard for what u have in ur tank but thats my opinion and its ur money so feel free to do what ever u like. I have been in this game for years and I have seen some really awesome tanks that would blow ur mind. But I have seen other tanks by people that have been in this hobby longer then me and there tanks arent very nice at all. And the best part is there setups have thousands of dollas invested and my basic setup looks and works better then theres..
And if u rely on ur setup u havent really learned anything at all. Also u said we try to make it as close to natural as possible yet u pick everything that looks weird out of ur tank.
Also all this talk about algae I do believe that algae grows in the ocean also. The only difference is in a tank it is confined and can grow out of control if u have nothing to eat it. Quick fix to remove it is to buy a good cleanup crew and ur algae problem wont be a problem.

And just to let u know I was at a guys house who had a crazy ro di setup and his tank got wiped by a chlorine spike. Just remember there are always flaws even in the best setup in the world. No setup is perfect.



So I guess what i am saying is what works for one person might not work for someone else

 

[Blob-79]

So I guess what i am saying is what works for one person might not work for someone else.

This is precisely what this thread is about. You yourself said it. RO water=no doubts. tapwater=depends on your tapwater.

This is why we dont agree with advising people they should use tap water. As you said, what works for one person might not work for someone else. What we are suggesting people use will work here, china, germany..anywhere. This is a forum with members from all over southern ontario. You may be blessed with decent tap water, most are not.

But I have seen other tanks by people that have been in this hobby longer then me and there tanks arent very nice at all. And the best part is there setups have thousands of dollas invested and my basic setup looks and works better then theres.

And you actually think RO water is the cause of this?  I think the root of this argument comes from a lack of understanding. what kind of corals do you keep? what kind of corals do shayneh and cal and I keep? If someone started using tap water, say for a year, then they decided they wanted to keep harder to keep corals like SPS..even if they were to change over to RO it would take forever just for all the junk to leach back out of the rocks.

copper..your actually promoting copper?

think how much work you have to do on your tank...be honest.  Now, picture this...my tank, the only "work" I need to do on my tank is my water change regimen..15 gallons a month..yup thats it. I dont have to add water for evaporation, dont have to emtey my skimmer cup..dont have to clean algae. oh sorry I have to feed my fish still. All this time saved is converted to time I am able to enjoy my reef.

yes some of us may have "overkill" but that is by their own choice, no one told them they had to do it. Its their own insurance basically. No one here is saying to go overkill at all.

Im sorry if things I have said in this thread could be considered "bashing" please be more specific though, where have I bashed anyone? if disagreeing with a saltwater keeping practice is bashing..then I think we are all guilty

 

[Cal_stir]

the oceans were here way before man, they are so massive that even man can't pollute them as fast as our fresh water.
i don't remove any wierd stuff from my tank, i go so far as to remove whatever critters i can from my socks and put them back in my system
i have algae in my system, it is a natural part of the ecology, but i don't have nuisance algae
i feed my tank algea
i have a good clean up crew but it can't control nuisance algae
the guys tank probably got wiped out by an ammonia spike
for you to say your tank is better than someone elses is just your opinion
to say i haven't learned anything is bashing, i've learned alot, for instance, i've learned that you are an IDIOT!

i hope i haven't offended reeffreak

don't bother replying to me cuz i don't give shit about what you have to say, your an IDIOT!

 

[Blob-79]

ZOMG..PLeASE STOP YELLING.
I actually did read your whole post and yes I did understand it all. If your fish are not stressed, and are properly cared for..why do they need a constant dose of copper?  Ive never lost a fish. also have never had ich or any kind of desease. yes I have 2 tangs as well.(notorius for ich.)

lol I just read your edit..a chlorine spike wiped a tank..that was running RO? u got any proof of this, or you went to look at it.."yup looks like chlorine to me" I live not too far from the town water treatment facility. I get chlorine spikes once a month...all my stuff is alive..I fill a bathtub and walk into the bathroom and it smells like a public swimming pool on these days. Kinda like it

If you want to pull the experience card, I have been in the hobby for 15 years now, shayneh I think closer to 20.

have had nothing die from using tap water and I have had to frag my tank a couple of times.

so being your an expert on what causes things to die, what caused the deaths that werent because of tap water?

The fact that you can house SPS doesnt impress. brown sps doesnt indicate a good environment. In eight years youve only had to frag out a couple of times? that doesent show a good environment. I frag out every year or less. lately not so much cause im transitioning to sps dominated. But just by seeing the amount of growth ive had in the last couple months, I will be fragging every year for sure. We have our systems the way we have them to bring out the full colour of these amazing corals, maximise growth. keeping a brown sps just isnt too apealing to me.

 

[robin420]

I have fragged many times and I have lost stuff also I have moved 4 times in the past 8 years so ya u lose stuff. Stuff gets stressed andies. And like 3to 4 months ago just started actually paying attention to my tank again. Same water and liverock I always had as tank was still running. And just started to put money back into it as all my house renovations are done now. And everything is thriving and spreading. And never said I know it all I said everything I know is from experiences. Also we do about 15 gallons a month on a water change
also  I only have a nano tank and a mantis tank so not to much water needed.
U can think what u want about the chlorine thing I have seen his setup and tank and if he tells me that I believe him. Im sure with what he lost he did all the tests to find out.

 

[robin420]

Also u have never lost a fish. Most fish live between 5to 10 years if ur lucky. I did have a true perc and an oscillaris for almost 7years and from what Ive heard thats a long time.  And the only reason they died is because of the last move and renovations. Also  I had a 36inch yellow margin moray eel and a 48inch zebra moray also and u want to know why they died the heater screwed up and cooked them. I had them for 4 years. A coral can die from flow, water conditions, wrong location, too much light , not enough light and many other factors that we can not predict.  See what I am saying shit happens and stuff dies u cant predict what it was from something can fail and obviously thats what happened to buddy his setup failed him.

 

[Blob-79]

regardless, even if you buddies crash was due to chlorine. It wasnt the RO failing. It was him failing to perform his filter maintenance. Carbon will remove all chlorine...untill its spent.

I would keep typing but im pretty sure everything has been mentioned that needs to be mentioned for a hobbiest to make an informed desision. Tap water is proven to contain moderate to high levels of nitrates, phosphates, silicates, copper, if underdosed in chlorine can and will contain bacteria that will cause bacterial infections in your livestock. This is all that matters. All of these things are detrimental to a reef and livestock. Even if you or I had to buy 20 gallons of RO water a month, thats $40 in water....big deal, if you buy a unit its much cheeper. You can argue and quote experiences all you want. Its what tap water contains that promps us to say you are wrong to advise people use it.

 

[robin420]

I drink tap water and Im not dead so its gonna be good enough for something I bought and put into a fishtank.
Thats all Im saying.

 

[Blob-79]

I drink tap water and Im not dead so its gonna be good enough for something I bought and put into a fishtank.
Thats all Im saying.

thats up there with "some corals thive in sewage"
so if thats your line of reasoning..why use any conditioner at all? kind of a dumb question isnt it? corals and fish dont have the same resistances we have.

statements like that kind of deminish any credibility you might have had. Here Ill help you out. Because as I said, Yes tap water can be possible..but it takes due diligence...or just plain luck..Read this article, http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/1/chemistry#, it is both informative and non biased. It compares coral and fish tolerances to levels of chemicals in your tap water, 10 sample cites, so it also shows how important location can be. Pay special attention to the copper(averages prob in the 500ppb range) and other heavy metals section. not to mention the nitrate(some as high as 43ppm), phosphates(most are not reported but highest is 5.4ppm...thats HUGE). Take these values and then put them in your aquarium, let some water evaporate, then add more water to compensate...these levels just increased.

 

[reeffreak]

WOW poeple missed the whole point to the thread , gone on way to far so this thread is done .

 

[shayneh]

I also have used tapwater in my tanks for the last 8 years with no problems. And as for the bashing of people by some people on here. I would say grow up people. Its not ur money being spent so shut ur traps. And think about where ur ro water comes from straight from the tap all it takes is a chlorine spike in the water supply and ur setup is dead. As for that happening to me it wont cuz thats what conditioners are for.

Realistically u could run a succesfull reef tank with a aquaclear as long as u do water changes on a regular basis u will be fine. THERE IS NO NEED FOR EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT unless u have a big aquarium.

And for the people with fish only tanks I would highly suggest using tap water with conditioners as the copper from ur pipes will help keep disease out of ur setup.

Also this is a forum and in the rules of this forum it says that there should be no slander or bashing of people on here. Then i read all this bashing by shaneye and blob on ian tower and dr green thumb and if I was the moderator I would be swinging the ban hammer on both of them.

LOL! You do realize this whole statement doesn't make any sense and for all I care add your bong water Mr. 420. You completely missed the boat.
Also just so I have it clear, it's ok for you to tell us to shut our traps because it's not our money (nor is it yours) yet you talk about swinging your little ban hammer.....there must be something in your water.